We love Foreign Ministry spokesperson Jiang Yu

nanheyangrouchuan wrote: "We also don't have 900 missiles pointed at Cuba or Mexico or Canada"

How can you be so sure?

Jiang Yu reminds me of an uptight librarian who lets it all loose once the sun goes down. I'll bet she is wild.

The US has committed its fair share of human rights abuses, but in its short 250 odd year history has come further to address those issues than the vast majority of the world's countries or cultures. That is why the US is still #1 for immigrants. And thanks to the 2nd amendment the US gov't has to mind its manners with US citizens.

Western Europe is still stuck in a victorian mindset with regards to its immigrants, eastern europe is still a collection of villages and commie enclaves. Most of Africa and South America are havens for strongmen. The middle east and central Asia are rife with millenia old tribal and religious hatred and eastern asia isn't much better. As for Americans who live in places like china and spit on the US, I'll bet you still keep your US passport in your bedroom and the US consulate hotline in your wallet. Most of you are defective anyway and getting by in developing countries with your white face as carte blanche is the only life you are going to get.

As for brainwashing, I can get lots of different political views from around the world as well as unabashed hatred of bush and the neoclowns. Can you say the same in China? No. Controlling wombs? One child policy, village birth quotas, permission from your employer to get married.

Government officials in the US aren't selling the organs of gitmo prisoners, filtering the internet, punishing newspaper editors for criticising Bush, Darth Cheney or "fat bastard" Rove.

We also don't have 900 missiles pointed at Cuba or Mexico or Canada, the US doesn't organize big "anti China" protests outside of chinese consulates (or other consulates).

So where are you from Nick? A condescending european? Perhaps we can discuss the sins of your country compared to the US.

Actually, haman rights abuses in America extend far, far beyond just the above mentioned, with Latin America.

as I am often told by my friends, "it's not what you say, but how you say it" and I think this applies to this case where the United States often criticizes other countries over human rights violations and ignores that of its own. my experience is that most americans care more about branjolina than they do about gitmo.

to me, it's fine that China has human rights violations, after all it never advertises itself as the land of the free and home of the brave. It's a communist country, wtf do you expect? Yeah, there are human rights abuses, but do the bulk of the citizens here really care about their rights? Based on my informal poll, 99% of Chinese will take money (cash) over human rights any day of the week, and twice on sunday.

my main beef with the U.S. is that it doesn't do what it preaches. after living in china, it seems to me that all chinese understand that the media is censored and biased, and can read between the lines. I can't say that about the states. Sure the media is seperate from the states, but somehow the media isn't so neutral. and most americans can't see it.

for the record, Jiang Yu needs a better haircut...that being said, I wouldn't kick her out of bed.

It is amazing to see how quickly people forget the past. If you compare the States with China from ’49 onwards, how can you honestly say that China is no worse than the US? I won’t go into the details of the famines, purges, genocide, labor camps, and yes the wars that China has been involved in (they invaded Vietnam as well btw and had a 10year war with them). How can you even make a comparison between the two countries’ HR record?

It amazes me to see how easily we expats fall into a sense of complacency- as Alec put it the Expat bubble. Seems awfully like the same hubris exhibited by the first round of foreigners who lived in Shanghai beginning of the last century before they got the boot.

I hear disgruntled Americans complain about the War (great work of idiocy), the US Press (at its lowest ebb at the moment), torture, and the restrictions on freedom – all of which are major concerns. But when they begin comparing these issues to China and say ‘well we’re just as bad!’ it as if they have lost all sense of scale entirely. And it’s not about who is better than the other – this isn’t the World Cup or any other game for that matter! China’s problems must be seen in context of China’s past and its reality today – along with global norms. This is true of the States as well.

Stop comparing apples and watermelons (yeah, not oranges).

Why does it always seem to concern only to free speech, religion, etc., when we talk about human rights? What about my right to make myself a multimillionaire? I think there is a calculus to weight all these different types of human rights, and that's your choice of where to live. It seems that many Shanghaiist readers who choose to stay in China and those Sea-Turtles like myself think China is a more livable place, at least for the time being; and those people from Fujian who pay Snake-Heads tens of thousands of dollar to smuggle themselves into the US and UK definitely think China has a despicable record of human rights abuses. For those in the West who feel they have a moral obligation to hold China accountable and to interfere, I think there’s something they can really do and truly help. That is to get rid of their immigration laws, welcome wholeheartedly all those who want to escape human-rights-abusing regimes, help them to smuggle themselves out of the country when their authorities try to stop them. Otherwise I can’t help but think they are condescending hypocrite.

"if you want to trot out Iraq as America's centerpiece of human rights violation, then lets look at T-bet and the cultural (and real) genocide that's gone on there over the last 50 years."

Let's not ry to compare, contrast and analyse which one is worse. I am saying China's record is no worse than the US. And many other western countries.

How long have spent in Tibet out of interest? The UK and America (more so) have a history of 100s of years of SLAVERY. The US went to Vietnam and slaughtered innocent people. Once you reach these levels, in my opinion, you become as bad as everyone else no matter what they do. In my opinion.

Nick said "Personally, I would rather live in China than the USA."

I think that's the most intelligent and honest thing I have ever read on this website :)

I LOVE IT I LOVE IT I LOVE IT!

What I want to see is a paddle fight between Jiang Yu and Zhang Ziyi flying around on wires. Jiang Yu already has perfect flying hair, and that chin could shatter a damn near any paddle that hit it, especially from a pansy-ass 40 kilo Zhang Ziyi.

Every nation is flawed. But, Nick, you can't make a statement like 'China has a bad human rights record but no worse than the USA's' with a straight face. If you want to trot out Iraq as America's centerpiece of human rights violation, then lets look at T-bet and the cultural (and real) genocide that's gone on there over the last 50 years. In Iraq we are attempting at least to instill a government that will protect basic values (admittedly ruthlessly, but then a lighter touch would definately not work). Executions, basic liberties, internet freedom . . . China is many degrees worse than the US. Tapping of phone lines? Probably every e-mail you send gets routed across somebody else's computer in this country. So you'd rather live in China than America? Wait until the Chinese authorities pop our comfortable little expat bubbles and all the extra freedoms we enjoy disappear - say when China hits its first major road bump and the authorities need someone to blame (and all the Japanese have decided they don't need this sh-t anymore).

On American foreign policy - yes it sucks, absolute power corrupts absolutely. But for all its posturing, if China was in America's position the Red army would have overrun every country in the Eastern hemisphere that once pledged fealty to China. America's power keeps China in check. Hell, when the book 1452 came out China probably would have used this excuse to go take back its 'ancient and inviolable colonies' in the New World. American power keeps China out of Taiwan, NK (heavily supported by China) out of SK, and all those little island disputes flaring into major regional conflicts. We've toppled a few repressive governments in recent years, sure. Maybe unwarranted - I don't agree with what the USA did, certainly. But it's not like Saddam and the Taliban were giving out ice-cream to their citizens and held dance parties every Friday.

America does have flaws. Especially Republicans, who are awful and basically the same breed of folks that in other times and countries supported Mussolini and China's Communist Party, but at least half the population is of a more reasonable bent - and occasionally (just not recently) they get to make policy too.

I miss the days that the US could talk about human rights, peace and democracy without sounding like a total hypocrite. Change is coming.

Don't shoot the messenger.

"more interested in truth than in lies."

If we are talking about governments, then a big big big no for the US (and the UK).

You are proud about the US, a Chinese person is proud about China. It's all the same thing, it just depends who brainwashed you growing up.

Well, instead of asking why the Americans are so preachy and critical, the Chinese ought to engage in some self-reflection on how they take criticism. (a lesson that many only learn in therapy).

It's not as if the only reason that the Chinese reject human rights criticism is the preachy tone of warmongering Americans. Just because the Americans are making war now and have committed human rights violations in the past isn't, ipso facto, reason to reject the criticism. If that criticism is largely based on factual evidence and research, then perhaps there is something to be learned and gained from it.

If Zimbabwe came out with a report about China's human rights, China would have the same reaction. And then China would say "look at you guys, esp. you Mugabe, what right do you have to talk?" And if the UK came out with a report, same deal. If Luxembourg's gov't passed a resolution censuring China, what would China say--"hey you guys are OK, we can accept criticism from you guys."

The point is, of course, that China categorically rejects human rights criticism. And this is a legacy of a suspicion and distrust of foreign powers--a mantlepiece of the CCP ideology. How long must this last? If we take the ability to accept criticism without it inflicting undue damange onto the ego as a sign of individual maturation, why not make it a principle by which nations conduct themselves?

It is not China, esp. those in CHina suffering from human rights violations, that are aggrieved. I think some of them would welcome more international attention on the issues that affect them. It really depends on who you talk to--certainly the Shanghainese kids bouncing to the beats at Bon Bon don't care, or might feel aggrieved. But the people that i interviewed about housing told me flat out: the problem with China is the CCP. These are people, in their 40s and above, that grew up in China.

America might seem oblivious to criticism--it went on with a war despite the opposition of a good chunk of our population plus most of the world. A travesty, yes, but don't forget that the culture of dissent in America, waxes and wanes but never disappears. Some of the most vociferous and eloquent critics of American policy are americans.

My pride in the US is not based on the rejection of relevant criticisms or dismising someone because they are preachy--it's based on the very fact that in our best moments, we have the ability to be self-critical--more interested in truth than in lies.

The spokeswoman's position does not represent the position of Chinese people under all circumstances and for all time. I think there will be a day when China can accept criticism from other nations, b/c it is a member of the community of nations, it is a UN member, and we live in a globalized world where information has no borders.

I see your point, PJ, but you are not a foreign ministry spokesperson, who has an agenda with blunt statements. And I do believe that any government would feel aggrieved - basically pissed off - if a country such as America blamed them for human rights abuses. The whole Iraq war is a human rights abuse (also perpetrated by the UK, Australia, Italy, Spain et al). As was the Vietnam war. The Bush admin. admits it is happy about tapping phone lines all across the USA, and wants to control wombs and homosexual minds.

Therefore I would be annoyed if I was Chinese and being preached to. I would bluntly say 'butt out'.

Personally, I would rather live in China than the USA.

Back to important points:

"Zhang Ziyi on the other hand..."

Don't get me started.

splitting hairs i would have to quibble with what it means to "meddle." the US does this every year, and China is not the only country that receives some forms of censure for human rights abuses. Much of this really boils down to a formality--a he said she said type of thing. This is just what governments do to make it seem as if they're busy on the human rights front. THe words belie the fact that the real work on human rights is often done by NGOs and other organizations--the ones that mount campaigns, that keep track of what's happening.

The Chiense peopel that suffer from human rights abuses--take the housing rights folks that i talked to and posted about in august of last year--they believe in the universality of human rights. They want attention, that's why they pose in front of teh western press whenever they get a camera pointed their way. The "non-interference" policy is one formulated by the Party-state and not by the victims of human rights abuses, i think that this is a point we ought to keep in mind. I am an American, i know about the human rights abuses that America has perpetrated in its history. But perhaps i ought to reiterate the obvious point that many people would rather choose to live in teh US than in China. There are reaons why people like my father left China/Taiwan for the US--academic and intellectual freedom, which is part of our quality of life. Gitmo bay human rights abuses are different from the human rights abuses that affect normal US citizens. The US would only be a real hypocrite if it denied or did not pay any attention to Gitmo bay--but it doesn't. Americans are more blind to the poverty and uncertainty of america's working poor, which is much less "hot" in our media, than they are to Gitmo bay or other higher profile news stories. I wish there were a moral calculus that one could employ to weigh all these different types of human rights violations, but there isn't--and thus i find it hard to make judgments on these things beyond specific cases.

You can tell Americans to shut up about China's human rights abuses--or perhaps find a more "delicate" or nuanced way of saying the same thing--but if its' a choice between blunt statements and silence, i would prefer the former.

Nobody has answered Nick's question just yet. "Does anyone else want to be paddled by her, or is it just us?"

Just you Nick, just you.

Zhang Ziyi on the other hand...

I think we all know perfectly well the horrible human rights record China has, it's debateable whether it actually is worse or better than the US's.

But I agree with Jian Yu, the US has to stop meddling with Chinese issues, and focus their energy on US-related issues, like Gitmo Bay.

Having said that, China does still have a long way to go with social liberties.

"these comments are pretty despicable examples of the global community's continued unwillingness to hold china accountable for its atrocious human rights record. shanghaiist is doing its readers a disservice by supporting her lies, whether in an attempt at humor or irony."

The USA DOES supply more arms. It's human rights record IS awful.

China has a bad human rights record but NO WORSE than the US (and the UK, taking history into account and the Iraq war).

The Chinese government printed 14 million bibles last year.

Americans I speak to tell me that Bush won the presidency on two main issues -- no gay marriage and anti-abortion.

I do like Jiang Yu's no BS style. I call her hair-style 'The Phoenix Quiff'.

What is going on with her hair? It looks like a cross between a faux-hawk and a femullett.

Strange, I grossly interfered in the internal affairs of a Chinese woman last week, but she seemed to like it. Of course I didn't violate her human rights; violated the lower portion of her digestive tract, but not her human rights. Which is probably what Ms. Jiang is getting at.

She looks cool and she kicks ass. Excellent choice by the Chinese government.

Peijin, your sharp, well spotted ;-)

...from an annonymous Shanghaiist contributor

wait...this whole thread is like a parody, right?

Good skills Shanghaiist. I couldn't agree more with Jiang Yu. Yes, China has a dispicable human right's record, which the world needs to address urgently, but looking at her words literally they are true - the USA, whilst it looks not so bad compared to China, it is responsible for some truly shocking human rights violations of its own - case in point Guantanamo Bay. No-one likes a hypocrite and they dont come no bigger than the US.

Also, one thing I really, and completely and wholeheartedly agree on is the Chinese government's attitude to religion. It's nothing but superstition and the government is doing everyone a favour by driving it underground, because that is where it belongs - a personal choice between one person and their god which can be practised in the privacy of one's home.

It's great to see all these Christians getting booted out of China for trying to brainwash and convert its already brainwashed population, then whining to the US government about "religious freedom". Can you imagine if a load of CHinese went over to the states and starting trying to spread communism? Exactly.

Dude, lighten up, it's too early in the morning.

these comments are pretty despicable examples of the global community's continued unwillingness to hold china accountable for its atrocious human rights record. shanghaiist is doing its readers a disservice by supporting her lies, whether in an attempt at humor or irony.