Protest in Guangzhou: Why would you burn garbage?
Barbie Spa: For the cosmopolitan plastic beauty in you
Obama in China: Long gone, and still headlinin'
Week Around the Ists
Interview: Coco Zhao, from jazz to M. Butterfly
The post's conclusion: Shanghai's subway system is cleaner than New York's.
To get the obvious out of the way: Shanghai’s subway system is one of the world’s youngest. But I don’t think that the fact that NY’s subway system is so old disqualifies any comparison with other subway systems. New York’s system doesn’t (only) have an infrastucture problem. It has a lack of basic maintenance and sanitation problem. In part, this is ultimately a problem of expectation. The subway system has been a run-down rat’s nest for decades (as in four or five of them), and most people who live here are just used to it. Another reason the subway system hasn’t improved much over the years is the market. Who takes the subway in Shanghai? And who takes it in New York? For the most part, in Shanghai the typical rider is a member of the professional class. In New York, the typical rider is either young or lower middle class. Now those are two gigantic generalizations, but that is how I would differentiate subway riders in Shanghai from their counterparts in New York - in general. (I already hear the moans and guffaws coming). Why does this matter? As with all things political (and public infrastructure expenditures couldn’t be anymore political), follow the money.
But aren't the socioeconomic classes of the cities' respective subway users also directly related to the newness of Shanghai's system and the oldness of New York's? We would imagine New York's subway riders weren't always "young or lower middle class" and we doubt Shanghai's will always be "professional." It's kind of like comparing apples and rotten oranges. Let's see what Shanghai's subway looks like in 100 years.
Right now we are happy to enjoy the cleanliness of the Shanghai subway (minus the pick pockets), but if forced to pick between the systems of New York and Shanghai, we'd pick New York's in a second (rats and all). Why? There's a better chance it would actually get us where we wanted to go. For all of Shanghai's subway expansions, the system is still pretty limited. Ask us the same question five years from now, however, we very well could have a different answer -- there's lots of digging going on under Shanghai.
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It would be nice if they actually used pictures of Shanghai's subway to make the comparison... I don't think we've got a XIN LONG HU station here, and we definitely don't have any red seats. Looks more like the HK subway to me. Should have taken pictures of the the line #4, those are some nice stations!
No, it is definitely not a MTR station in Hong Kong, though the station's name is in traditional Chinese. I haven't been back to Shanghai for a while so I am not sure if there is a Xin Long Hua station. It might be an old name for the South Rail Station. Plus, the person in the photo doesn't look like a HKger (look at his shoes and socks).
Another major difference is that the trains in NYC run 24 hours. I was shocked to find out that the last subway in shanghai left before midnight.
I think it says Xin Long Hua on the train. I have really enjoyed the Shanghai subway during my visits. It is really clean, and I don't think we ever waited for more than a few minutes on the platform. Of course it doesn't go many places yet but that should be fixed with the crazy number of lines planned. One of the areas that could use some improvement is the ticket sale booth/station. There needs to be more automatic ticket sale machines. Every time I wait in line at the booth I am reminded of how much people suck at forming lines and how rude people can be when they are paid minimum wage working for the public sector. I am not sure if that rude treatment is reserved for people that don't speak the local dialect though. Maybe someone fluent in the local dialect can comment on this. NYC subway always smells like piss, on the train, in the station... and there are always beggers on the train. Does Shanghai subway ban beggers? I will have to think that they do because my husband and I always get mobbed on the street and yet we have never seen any on the train.
I admittedly didn't look at the photo very closely, but I do believe the photo was taken in Shanghai -- it just may not be very new. A couple quick Google searches (here and here) shows that there is or was a Xinlonghua Station in Shanghai somewhere in Xuhui District, which would mean Line One. It is possible, as mmonk said, that it is the former name of Shanghai South Station. My knowledge of the Shanghai Metro's history (and even part of its present) is admittedly weak. I'm sure someone will come along and clear this up.
I am a local Shanghainese and I am frequent user of the city's metro system. That picture on top is taken in shanghai,but it's old. Now the station is called Shanghai South Station Station. It was reconstructed to become an interchange hub with the near-by South railway station.
I agree with Dan that comparing Shanghai's metro with the NYC subway is like comparing apples and oranges. As mentioned, NYC's subways system is one of the oldest in the world and runs 24 hours and has something like 30 different subways lines (!!). Compare that to Shanghai, which has only 11 planned for 2010... and most of those lines are completely inconvenient anyway, at least in the center of the city.
And it is absolute bullshit that subway riders consist mainly of the young and "lower middle class." Most everyone in NYC takes the subway; just take the #1 line at morning rush hour and you will see Wall Street types in snazzy suits sitting next to blue collar workers.
I'm from NYC and will always be a "New Yorker" no matter where I live in the world, and you can say what you what about the subway being smelly and rat infested (no arguments there, it is), but in what other city can you ride the metro at 4 a.m.? And get major discounts when you buy monthly metrocards? And have free entertainment by way of the hundreds of musicians jamming away on the platform? And be able to get to nearly anywhere in the city for just $3?
There is just no comparison... stepping off my soapbox now...
adding my two cents:
as a lifelong new yorker wannabe (like everyone from jersey inevitably is) i have to say that one o the things that i enjoy most is riding the subway; esp. after you haven't been in NYC for awhile. Step out of JFK early in the morning bleary eyed from watching bad movies on jet blue and get your Dunkin DOnuts coffee, pour that energy in you and get on the A line -- a transcendent experience if there ever was one. There is one other thing: when you're in the subway in new york the feeling of both being among and alone in the crowd is deeper than anywhere else. There's just less between you and "humanity" in new york--in the subway you can see and feel the pulse of New York City as if you were part of it; everywhere else, and Shanghai included, there' a level and layer of remove that simply cannot be written off as "culture" or simple unfamiliarity with a place.
Speaking as a Chinese-American New Yorker currently living in Shanghai, I think I have a very good perspective to compare the two subway systems.
In this stage of each subway system's history there is no comparison between the two.
As for the asthetics and cleanliness of course the Shanghai subway is better. It is about 100 years newer than New York. However you don't take the subways to experience the finer things in life so asthetics and cleanliness is secondary (anyway the cleanliness issue in NY is only in the station, not in the trains themselves). You take the subway to get from point A to point B. In this regard the NY subway is far better because of how extensive it is. There are 24 different lines in NY and there are numerous transfer points within the system between the lines. The NY subway also runs 24 hours a day.
Currently there are only 5 lines running in Shanghai so it is not that convenient.
As notorious the New Yorkers are when it comes to ettiquette in the US, Shanghai and China is in a different league. You have a wide cross section of New Yorkers taking the subways and you pretty much have professionals taking them in Shanghai. I could say that I have been shoved, pushed and been cut in line with far more regularity in Shanghai than New York.
In conclusion, comparing the two subway system right now is not a fair comparison. Give Shanghai another 50 years and I am sure it would be a better comparision.
Quote..."but in what other city can you ride the metro at 4 a.m.? And get major discounts when you buy monthly metrocards? And have free entertainment by way of the hundreds of musicians jamming away on the platform? And be able to get to nearly anywhere in the city for just $3?"
Hey, for me, Paris metro fits your picture, in every sense, London is not far away either. I've never used metro system in NYC and anyone could shed some lights on the difference among these three? I think they're in the similiar category in regards of the history and extensity. And the condition of metro of Paris or London seemed properly-managed and looks not that crappy as in the NYC subway picture above.
U-S-A U-S-A U-S-A! Were number 2! Well when you have right wing politicians that run deficits and refuse to pass decent taxes you can't pay for infrastructure investments. We have an entire political party in the US that does not believe in the ability of an effective government.
A few points:
- I'm a native New Yorker also, and I've been riding the subway on and off for two decades. (Ok, got that out of the way). I don't buy this apples/oranges argument because, as I stated in my post, the NY subway system's main problem is not infrastructure, but filth. Filth only requires manpower, a mop, and some paint. I wasn't comparing the tracks or the number of lines or the load bearing capacity of the pillars, etc.
For example, some highways in the US are over 50 years old. If these "old" highways had garbage and rats strewn all over them, could we dismiss it because the infrastructure was built 50 years ago? Don't think so. Red herring. Same with the subway. Hire more people to clean the stations; it is really that simple.
The nail in the coffin: Tokyo's subway system is 65 years old (79, actually, if you go back to the original private line that was started in 1927).
- As I predicted, someone claimed that my claim that straphangers in NY are generally lower middle/working class is "absolute bullshit." I didn't say "all." I said "in general," which I stand by 1000%. Of course there are Wall Street types that take the subway. So does the billionaire mayor. Maybe 40% of the 6 train during rush hour are stockbrokers. This proves nothing in the aggregate. We are both arguing anecdotally here, so I know we won't get anywhere, but most of the people I know who are upper middle/upper class take cabs or have cars and rarely use the subway unless they are stuck somewhere.
- Yes, the photo I used is an older picture of Shanghai's subway system.
I don't think it would be fair to characterize the NYC subway as filthy as 88 portrays. Some secondary stations and subway platforms can definitely use some cleaning and proper maintenance. However this does not apply to all stations. Also most of the subway cars themselves are clean. I think most people understand that you take the subways because it is an inexpensive, fast and convenient way to go somewhere. So cleanliness is a secondary factor. Unless it is absolutely filthy I think people can tolerate it. I would not characterize the NYC subways as absolutely filthy. There was a time in NY's history where the subways where crime and filth served as major deterrents. This is not the case anymore.
I think there is no argument about which system is cleaner Shanghai or NY. 88, I think people are pointing out that you are overemphasizing and exaggerating a secondary factor.
@akam: Everyone I've taken around NYC from out of town or out of the country immediately comments on how dirty and run-down the subway system is, especially relative to subway systems in other major cities. If I am exaggerating or overemphasizing that point, then so are all of these others. In fact, the only people I've ever found who defend the state of the subway system in NYC are other native New Yorkers who invariably use the "Come on, it is 100 years old!" defense. I already dispatched that argument.
I do agree that not all stations are equally dirty and run-down and that some of the trains are newer than others, but the system as a whole has a long way to go to match Tokyo or Shanghai or Munich.