Obama in China: Long gone, and still headlinin'
Protest in Guangzhou: Why would you burn garbage?
Interview: Coco Zhao, from jazz to M. Butterfly
Barbie Spa: For the cosmopolitan plastic beauty in you
Week Around the Ists
- We all know that you can't buy Lonely Planet China in China, but now are they confiscating the books when people enter the Mainland? Ridiculous. (By the way, if anyone has one of the new books, can you tell us what they said about Shanghaiist? We have heard they mention us in there.)
- Read old books online: Via Virtual China, we discover Photographic Journal: "A collection of photographs taken in cities including Beijing and Shanghai by Alfons von Mumm. Mumm left in Genova July 1900, and arrived in Beijing in October of the same year."
- From TIME: "'The Blogosphere Strikes Back,' China's netizens have become experts at wielding the power of the web to settle personal squabbles. This time, they took on a major tech company—and won"
- We always knew too many Chinese banquets could kill you.
- Protests at Fudan University.
- Those Cheong-Sam dresses look painted on ... because they are.
- Shanghai-born actor Hu Ge was injured in a nasty looking car accident traveling between Hangzhou and Shanghai. One of his female assistants died in the crash. Hu's injuries are not thought to be life threatening ... but his face may not look the same.
- World Trade Center and Miami Vice will arrive in Chinese theaters in December. But will they arrive uncut?
- "The World According to China"
- Can Li Na win the U.S. Open for China?
- Crocodile Hunter: RIP.
- After some behind the scenes mediation from Apple and protests from Reporters Without Borders, Foxconn (the Chinese iPod factory folks) cut a lawsuit against two reporters from 30 million yuan ($3.8 million USD) to just 1 yuan. No word yet if the 1 yuan will be split into 2/3 and 1/3 (originally, one reporter was supposed to pay 20 million yuan and the other 10 million).
Photo by raincontreras taken from the Shanghaiist Contribute page. To see your photos on our Contribute page, use Flickr and tag your photos “shanghaiist”. Or you can email your photos to photos@shanghaiist.com and they will automatically appear on our site.
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Confiscating books upon entry to China? Impossible, everyone knows the sky is blue and the grass is green there, and the chinese people enjoy full democracy and rights under chinese law. Unthinkable.
Can't connect to that China Daily story here, "internal server" problem. I can get to the China Daily main page and read other stories about CHina's progress...tractor output is up %20 this year.
Have those Fudan students built a paper mache "statue of liberty" yet?
I imagine WTC will have voiceovers cursing islams and supporting Bush and possibly blaming China.
Miami Vice will be alot shorter after the multiple sex scenes between Gong Li and Colin Farrell are cut out, because everyone knows an Asian girl doesn't really want a white guy unless a passport is involved.
"The World According to China" just another reason why the UN is so worthless know. I'll bet that Beijing may try to erect a new UN in Shanghai. And of course this new world order has China at the very center and looking down on everyone else.
Posts from "nanheyangrouchuan" are consistently bitter and grouchy when it comes to China---but wait, ain't they ALL about China, with no exception? For someone with such intense dislike of the country and this particular city of Shanghai, Mr. Kabob is surely obsessed with it. Interesting. Some may suspect that our friend may have personal reasons to be bitter; you know, failure at job, jilted by Shanghai princesses, etc. But we are too nice to speculate.
Yo, Lamb kabob without cumin (isn't that why it stinks to high heaven?): see my comments on your other silly post about China's expansionary history below.
http://www.shanghaiist.com/archives/2006/08/24/if_china_ruled.php#comments
Mr. Kabob provides ample evidence that half knowledge is a dangerous thing---oh, scratch "dangerous"; for ignorance is harmless enough.
This is not true, you can buy the LP China in Mainland China, go to Bingfeng dot com web site to check it out.
Sounds dubious - I've also seen China lonely planet at the Garden Books and on the sixth floor of Shu-cheng on fuzhou lu - of course it's inaccurate and the writers are always that lamenting China is not like southeast asia, but its there . . . .
@ Orifice
Perhaps you haven't kept up on what South Koreans have to say about China's claim most of N. Korea. China has occupied Korea twice, once the koreans toseed them, second time the Japanese tossed them. I do remember some static on chinese BBSs when Seoul decided to do away with the "汉成" characters in favor of something more "korean".
On Russia, successive Tsars drove the Mongols back and took what what is now modern Siberia. Russia has given back small pieces of land around the occupied territory of Xinjiang and a small island where the Song River meets Russia, but conservatives in Beijing claim up to %30 of existing Siberia and conveniently most of that territory holds most of Russias proven oil, gas and mineral reserves, as well as coastline up to Alaska.
Last year the BBC had an audio interview of a Kazak woman who was a translator for Sinopec, she angry discussed at length chinese maps that appeared to claim around 1/3 of Kazakstan's existing territory, when she asked a female engineer about this, the chinese woman replied "won't you be happy to see the chinese flag flying over head?" No wonder the B is banned.
Mao's invasion of India may have occurred to punish India for actively supporting Tibetan freedom fighters. As things stand now, a few PLA divisions occupy valleys in Kashmir and the PLAAF has been constructing "jump" airbases in Tibet for fast deployment of fighters and light bombers. These airfields are only maintained by a maintenance crew until hostilities escalate, then planes, weapons and fuel will be moved up there to support a fast strike similar to what the US did with "island hopping" in WW2 for fighter support.
One of these airbases is clearly visible from the road from Chengdu to the Tibetan capital.
BTW, in the mid 50s, the Mongolians had to beg the Soviets to defend them from PLA invasion. 500,000 troops died in the process, most were PLA who tried to use the "human wave" tactic against modern Soviet planes, armor and heavy artillery. Inner Mongolia is what was lost, Mongolia is what remains.
Search google for 1st, 2nd and 3rd green water chains.
China's invasion of Vietnam, violation of the UN agreement dividing diaoyu/senkaku island's gas field.
China's claim of ALL of the south china sea down to the beaches of Malaysia.
Need I go on? Regarding Tibet, Beijing says that "Tibet has always been chinese territory" but looking at maps going back to the Song Dynasty, most of China used to belong to Tibet. What gives?
I'm bitter? I'm only responding to alredy anti-big commie news on this site, why don't you do battle with the site staff?
As for your insults, more likely you are projecting.
"I'm only responding to alredy anti-big commie news on this site, why don't you do battle with the site staff?"
^ Mr. Kabob: the difference is that between skeptical China observers, and a crackpot conspiracy theoretician like yourself.
Examples of your shaky grasp of history and paranoid view of China:
1. "BTW, in the mid 50s, the Mongolians had to beg the Soviets to defend them from PLA invasion. 500,000 troops died in the process, ...... Inner Mongolia is what was lost, Mongolia is what remains."
- What is THAT? Were you perhaps referring to the War of Damansky Island (Chinese: 珍宝岛, or "ZhenBaoDao")? That was 1969, kiddo, long after Mongolia division was finalized! And half a million people died......god you are weird!
2. "On Russia, successive Tsars drove the Mongols back and took what what is now modern Siberia. Russia has given back small pieces of land around the occupied territory of Xinjiang " Hahaha...... why did Lenin include the 1.56 million sq-km Chinese territory in the post-WWI concession to return land that joined Russia as the result of Tsarist aggression? For an anti-Commie you sure have a lot of Russia sympathy.
3. "Perhaps you haven't kept up on what South Koreans have to say about China's claim most of N. Korea. " Obviously history left me behind: what IS the Chinese claim of N. Korea, anyway? Can you perhaps point us to some reliable online source that itemizes China's full territorial ambition, one that does not have sleazy links to mail-order brides or soapy-hand porn for bitter blue-collar hunks?
BTW: “汉城”，not "汉成".
4. "looking at maps going back to the Song Dynasty, most of China used to belong to Tibet. What gives?" Oh really? Hahahaha...... do I even need to seriously address this stupidity?
Where did you get your history lesson? Need to get your tuition back. We can write your professor a tesimony.
"......Foxconn (the Chinese iPod factory folks) cut a lawsuit against two reporters from 30 million yuan ($3.8 million USD) to just 1 yuan......"
- Now I am wondering if I point out that Foxconn is a Taiwanese company, not a Chinese one, would I get the usual lash-out for saying "Taiwan is not China", or would I get off easier from the Chinese patriots?
Additionally, my comments about China are to directly oppose the BS coming from the western Chambers of Lies, those "things" only seek to line their pockets and the pockets of their party overseers at the expense of ordinary chinese and the rest of the world. It is pure exploitation, that's Cisco, 3com, Nortel and various EU vendors filtering the net and jamming satellite TV. Americans in distress in China are abandoned by the US embassy for fear of risking "business deals" and most likely so are europeans. Western crimminals can flee to China due to lack of extradition treaties, how many expats are escaping drug charges, alimony, child support, murder or other crimes?
What powers the PLA's C4SI systems on land, air and sea? European electronics.
PLA tanks? Cadillac engines.
PLAN subs? Got new european hardware and software.
PLAN missiles (like the hundreds pointed at harmless, independent Taiwan)? Let's all thank Lockheed and Hughes electronics. And I'm sure that bits and pieces of Japanese and Korean tech has been "gifted" to ensure business contracts are signed and paid for.
Some has been stolen and that is the nature of international affairs, but most of this tech, money and knowhow has been given away by execs of MNC to secure business. Basically, they (meaning most of you) are traitors, just like the people who helped build up Nazi Germany and Imperial Japan. They all said these governments were harmless (even while Poland and Manchuria were gunned down). And the list of companies?
GE, IBM, Marconi, Bath Iron works, Rolls Royce, Dessault, etc.
'cause it's all just business until other people have to die because of you people.
Ummm . . . Orpheus, are you a new breed of English speaking communist tech-flunkie paid to defend government policies online?
I didn't think you could possibly contend that China, especially during the 50's and 60's, was not an aggressive nation. It is historical fact that Chinese troops fought on the borders of India and Mongolia (though certainly these conflicts were not solely the responsibility of China). The invasion of Vietnam is also documented - how can you dispute that?
But the biggest omission in your response is Tibet. China invaded Tibet and has perpetrated crimes there - I don't think you can argue this. Yes, Tibet was conquered by the Mongals around the 12th century, as was China slightly earlier. For a while the Mongals in Beijing held sway over the plateau. (Nan is right, incidentally, Tibetan kinds did conquer a fair swath of Chinese territory at one time. This, however, does not make those areas Tibetan). The vast majority of Tibetan history is distinct from Chinese. Ukraine is probably closer culturally to Russia than Tibet is to China (at least eastern Han Chinese).
Now, China's aggressive history appears behind it. The thuggish peasant auotocrats have been replaced with calculating ambitious technocrats - and right now it is in China's best interest to woo the world and build for itself a power base among developing countries. And regarding modern territorial claims - just about every nation in the region claims the South China Sea.
Is Chinese foreign policy as brutish and nasty as Nan makes it out to be? Probably not. But China was definately an aggressor nation at times during this century. But then again, on balance the United States has probably had a more atrocious foreign policy record over the past 50 years. And at least China appears to have left its invading armies in an earlier era.
Ummm . . . Alec, are you a new breed of English-teaching dysfunctional western losers that cannot survive in the competitive capitalist society, UNpaid to defend the last remainder of a fictional and meritless superiority complex?
Ouch, doesn't condescension hurt?
That being said, I have little contention with what you actually stated in your post. Amazingly, us two knucleheads are actually in agreement. Congratulations on having a less strenuous hold on history and common sense than Mr. Kabob's. I am sure, however, you won't find the comparison flattering.
Cut the paranoid crap about "communist tech-flunkie", and you may even grow up a little. You see, I am a hopeless optimist.
Wow, well the 'communist tech flunkie' comment was a light-hearted comparison to those bureoucratic stooges Shanghaiist reported on that prowl the net on the government's clock posing as regular Joes. Didn't realize that would touch such a nerve.
And yes, I do teach ESL . . . at an international school, for western wages.
Not sure where you're coming from with the 'fictional and meritless superiority complex'. About what? I tried to just state the facts.
Or did you realize you couldn't argue with logic and simply lashed out? There, there, it's ok, maybe if you think through what you're writing next-time you won't be shown up by a pathetic loser English teacher. How's that for condescending?
And I believe you mean 'tenuous' not 'strenuous' - guess not all of us can be English teachers . . .
"......maybe if you think through what you're writing next-time you won't be shown up by a pathetic loser English teacher......"
Now how did I get "shown up"? Or does this self-proclaimed triumph pass for the real thing in the watery domain that passes for brain in "a pathetic loser English teacher" (great self-knowledge)?
"And yes, I do teach ESL . . . at an international school, for western wages. "
-So I guessed right: you have no professional skills besides your mother tongue. Yet you feel that you can take pride in that pathetically narrow range of your competence simply because of, well, "western wages" (albeit that of an English teacher, haha......).
Incidentally, when literate people refer to the wage level of the industrialized world, they usually use "Western" with a capital "W". Then, one would say "wage", in singular form, to refer to one's salary. "Wages" are used as a term of economics, or in figurative expressions for fitting returns, such as "wages of sin", or "wages of fear". So unless your paycheck is blown in by a western breeze, and you get paid several separate salaries by your school, you made two mistakes in one simple phrase.
Scary to think that YOU will be teaching kids English, of all things. I guess not everyone on your school's staff deserves those "western wages".
"......comparison to those bureoucratic stooges Shanghaiist reported on ......"
You meant "bureaucratic", Headmaster Alec?
You guessed right; "not all of us can be English teachers . . . "
So I'll assume from your return to personal attack that you have no substantive issues to debate and that we can consider the original argument closed.
Perhaps you should turn your cutting brand of psychoanalysis on yourself and wonder why you have to viciously attack any 'knuclehead' who presents a view contrary to your own.
Lonely and bitter in China, (sigh) so sad . . .
@ Orifice
Despite the two new threads on this site about those crazy, paranoid men and women cancelling all live rock shows, you still wave the "blood flag" and sing "big China"?
As for comparing how much blood has been spilled between the US and China, you'd have to include China's lone support of Kim Jong Il and the graveyard known as North Korea.
How about exporting nuclear weapons material and know-how? When Lybia approached Britain about repairing relations with the West, they turned over nuke warhead designs written in Chinese. How did Pakistan get nukes? NK's suspect program? Iran's program?
Who is blocking UN action in Darfur?
What kept China from an more aggressive foreign policy? The Cultural Revolution.
If china is such a "wonderland", why does the government have to be so paranoid and micromanaging of society?
To Headmaster Alec: can you read? Guess not, from your habit of stating the obvious. Homework for you: read Post #10 3 times.
You see, this is the problem with China: it is so nice with people of minimal competence like yourself. Get a real job back in your own country. Better for you in the long run.
To Mr. Kabob: hate to commit the same sin as Alec, but one has to condescend to the level of your intelligence. "Comparing how much blood has been spilled between the US and China" ......hello? Anybody home?
To earn a bit more respect from mean mean boys like Yours Truly, you got to go a bit beyond copying other people's thoughts, and learn how to have a point-to-point discussion. That's how I challenge your claims. Learn things from your opponents.
Stop posting a few days, eat nothing but cumin, and meditate.
@ Orifice
So you have no actual responses, only "you guyz don't know nuttin' 'bout china!"
Since you are at Kangaroo Pub while blogging, say hello to Pete for me.
www.koreaherald.co.kr/SITE/data/html_dir/2006/09/06/200609060044.asp
Mr. Kabob: excerpts from the link you provided in Post#18:
"The long-standing dispute over history between Korea and China resurfaced yesterday upon revelation that China's state-run research center posted a blueprint of its controversial geo-historical project that allegedly invaded Korea's history.
Korean academia accuses the project of distorting history to provide a Chinese origin to Korea's past dynasties. "
- So this is by way of evidence for "China's claim most of N. Korea"? Are you really unable to tell the difference between Chinese arguing for "a Chinese origin to Korea's past dynasties", and China claiming most of N. Korea?
Can you read? Or are you just too lazy?
The three of you: grow up!
@ Orifice
"Are you really unable to tell the difference between Chinese arguing for "a Chinese origin to Korea's past dynasties", and China claiming most of N. Korea?"
And China's claim that those people are of CHinese descent, the same type of logic china used to seize Tibet. But with all of that air pollution stinging your eyes, the words must appear a bit blurry.
http://english.aljazeera.net/NR/exeres/99D02B64-6F77-45C5-B04E-27DE6F496EB1.htm
'Mao knew these people would die'
By Benjamin Robertson
Monday 04 September 2006, 11:07 Makka Time, 8:07 GMT
Author Jung Chang grew up in Maoist China
Related:
Beijing voices: Mao remembered
Timeline: From Mao to now
Q&A: Mao and Maoism
Mao and me
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Jung Chang and her husband, Jon Halliday, are the authors of "Mao: The Unknown Story", an epic 800-page biography of Mao Zedong. It provoked a mixed reaction when published last year for its depiction of Mao as a power-mad tyrant.
Jung Chang made her name with Wild Swans, a poignant tale of how three generations of women survived the turmoil of 20th-century China.
In researching Mao, the husband and wife team spent 10 years trawling archives across the former Soviet Union, China, and the United States. The book has sold more than half a million copies in hardback and will soon be released in Chinese.
Aljazeera.net: What was it like to live under Mao and how did you regard him?
Jung Chang: I was born into Mao's China and grew up with him as a godlike figure. In the same way that one must eat to live, one must worship Mao.
But I did question him - not his name, but his rule, when I was 14 when the Cultural Revolution started. There was a lot of violence and atrocities and I was terrified. And then my parents became victims of the fighting and I think that was the main thing. I loved my parents and when I had to choose between my parents and Mao, I chose my parents.
AJ: Mao died 30 years ago. How did you feel when you heard the news?
Jung (circled) in her days as a red
guard on a visit to Beijing
JC: I was in Chengdu at university where we gathered and were told he had died. I felt euphoric. And then I realised everyone seemed to be crying. As my tearless face could cause problems I buried my head on a girl's shoulders and heaved appropriately.
But I don't know how many of those tears were genuine and how many people had been acting all their lives under Mao.
AJ: Was it difficult to return to China to research Mao after what happened?
JC: The trips made me very emotional. You came across one tragic story after another. So many people had such awful lives. By comparison my life was extremely privileged even though my family suffered. So to listen to these people opened my eyes to just how awful Mao's rule was.
"He had incorporated this number of deaths in his planning and he did not want to stop"
There were a lot of things I had never dreamed of. For example, in the Great Famine in 1958-61 when nearly 40 million people died of starvation I had always thought it was about economic mismanagement. But during our research I realised that Mao knew these people would die.
He had incorporated this number of deaths in his planning and he did not want to stop.
AJ: In your book Mao comes across as a monster. Did he have no redeeming features?
JC: We do not use the word monster but he was certainly immoral.
[As for] redeeming features? He had tremendous foresight, strategic vision, he was able to conquer China, and perhaps without him the Chinese Communist Party would never have come to power.
He loved books but the problem was he would not allow hundreds of millions of Chinese to read, so is that a redeeming feature?
Mao's death brought millions of
mourners to Beijing
AJ: But why is he still so revered, both internationally and in China?
JC: I think the main reason is China is still a communist state, and Chinese leaders claim legitimacy from Mao. Because they are not democratically elected they have to justify their rule in some way so they said Mao is this great leader and hero and was the founding father of modern China and therefore we are legitimate.
They can also see that Mao equals the Communist Party, and, if they renounce Mao, in today's world this one-party rule would probably have to fall.
And outside China, partly because the Chinese themselves are not speaking up about Mao's rule in the same way Jews talk about Hitler or Russian exiles talked about Stalin, even those books that do come out don't seem to affect the West in the same way as writing about a gulag.
Jung and Halliday's biography is
being translated into Chinese
Jon Halliday (JH): Mao, at the end of his life, was at a period when Western countries recognised him and blew him up as a great world leader, and someone you could do business with. He dies at a moment when he is being glorified in the West and the UN flew its flags at half-mast even though he was not head of state.
And then lots of Western statesmen who grovelled to him in power wrote eulogies. So he went out on a high, fostered in part by foreign countries.
JC: Another factor is the Sinologist viewpoint of Mao. Particularly among Sinologists in America, so-called China experts, there are people who are either apologists for Mao, or treat him far more reverentially than he deserves. These people have written books around those lies, and have taught students around those lies, and they don't want their lie challenged, and in a way they are helping the Chinese government to perpetuate this myth.
AJ: But why have these Sinologists drawn different conclusions to you about Mao?
JC: Partly they did not do their research. And partly because the Chinese state is determined to cover up so it also makes it more difficult for them to do their research.
And sometimes, I think, people don't treat Chinese lives with the same weight as other lives. People tend to think there are an awful lot of Chinese. That tens of millions of people perished under Mao is a fact. But that is not enough to make people condemn him.
AJ: When you first started researching the book what impressions did you hold on Mao and how did they influence your line of inquiry?
Jung: Researching the book
produced 'shock after shock'
JC: My idea of Mao when I started was that he started out all right. That he basically did good things; was an idealist, was keen to fight Japan, he completed the heroic Long March, and beat the corrupt regime of Chiang Kai-Shek; that [the communist takeover in] 1949 was a good event.
And that after that there were a few years of honeymoon, so to speak, of relatively benign rule. But that from 1957 and the anti-rightist movement he started to go bad. The Great Leap Forward was terrible, the famine was terrible, and the Cultural Revolution was the worst.
However, what we found in these 10 years of research took me completely by surprise. It was shock after shock. Mao wasn't an idealist. It was all totally different from my assumptions before the research.
AJ: This year was the 40th anniversary of the start Cultural Revolution, of which there was little coverage in China. Do you think it necessary for countries to come to terms with history?
"If China wants to have any political reforms at all the rejection of Mao and Maoist legacies is absolutely essential"
JC: People don't have to believe in history. They can lead completely materialistic lives. If China wants to have any political reforms at all the rejection of Mao and Maoist legacies is absolutely essential.
JH: Coming to terms with history is vital. Nations are like human beings. You can't live without knowing your own past. It is even dangerous, particularly when in that past there are a lot of mistakes and crimes.
Jung Chang shortly before
leaving Beijing in 1978
For example, take China's relationship with Japan. A great deal of that is based on competing versions of history. Some of that is very propagandistic but underlying that are horrific crimes committed against the Chinese by the Japanese. I wonder what would happen if someone were to get through to the Chinese that the Chinese Communist Party killed more Chinese than the Japanese did?
AJ: What do you think the consequence of doing that would be? Opening old wounds could perhaps lead to a further period of recriminations?
JH: I don't think countries that have had a process of truth and reconciliation committees, like South Africa and Chile, have been weakened in any way. There are issues of how this would be handled and there needs to be an emphasis on the word reconciliation. But in the end it comes back to the relationship between freedom of information, democracy, and the rule of law.
The Chinese Communist Party claims a monopoly on power and criminalises the concept of pluralism and this cycle can't be broken until there is freedom of information and there is democracy. It would be a safer country for the rest of the world and be better for the Chinese. Truth and reconciliation doesn't have to produce social disorder.
JC: People have not forgotten Mao's rule and its impact on people's lives. The truth has been swept under the carpet.
Is it better to give vent to people's feelings through truth and reconciliation or is it better to suppress and let the volcano erupt one day? And it could, because the country is fragile and could not weather a real crisis.