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This week in Shanghaiist
We learned from the Shanghai Daily that 10 Chinese PhD students started a petition urging people to boycott Christmas:
The petition, published online and signed by 10 PhD students from top universities in China, triggered intense Internet discussion and polling, in which tens of thousands of people urged a boycott of Christmas festivities.
Later on in the article, it says that most Chinese people don't know what the true meaning of Christmas is, and that more attention should be paid to traditional Chinese holidays.
Before you think that this is some kind of nationalist screed, please read the original (in Chinese)*. It does say, as the Shanghai Daily suggests, that people should not celebrate Christmas, but they don't mean everyone—Chinese Christians are allowed to, and they believe in and respect people's rights to their beliefs. Their objection is more targeted towards the vulgarized and commercialized Christmas that seems to have overtaken the shopping malls and even the elementary schools, where everyone seems to get festive and kids seem to get into the act without really knowing what the heck is going on.
The deeper point they want to make is that this is not just nefarious cultural imperialism on the part of the West (or at least the capitalists in the West) but also linked to a cultural inferiority complex the Chinese have vis-a-vis the West. Chinese festivals seem a bit a tired and conventional and going to church, attending mass, partying, shopping and exchanging gifts seems to offer more of the novelty and excitement that many young Chinese people desire.
At the same time, the authors express their wish that there might be some way of revitalizing traditional Chinese holidays without simply aping Christmas. One blogger noted that holidays are getting lumped together now in terms of timing—National Day and Mid-Autumn Festival, Christmas with Western New Year, Chinese New Year and, of course, Valentine's Day**. This blogger (not one of the 10 authors/signatories) seems to believe that doing so would further dilute the meaning and significance of Chinese New Year even more.
And that, in the end, is the issue—there seems to be a sentiment among in the Chinese blogosphere that Chinese New Year just ain't what it used to be. Now Shanghaiist has no idea how one would answer that question—for one thing, it's a difficult thing to measure or quantify, and relies a lot on subjective perceptions of things. What do the readers think, especially those who celebrated Chinese New Year often enough to observe changes in how its perceived and celebrated? It would be interesting, we think, to also compare the Christmas experience in the PRC with that in Taiwan, Hong Kong, and Singapore.
*Are there are any full translations of this into English or another language? We don't think so, yet. Please leave a comment if you've found one/do one yourself.
**Speaking of Valentine's Day, please remember to buy some flowers, because we need to break the 600 million flower per year (or 20 flowers per second) figure we set in 2006. Has anyone done that math? Does 600 million flowers in 365 days come out to 20 per second?
Photo from panorama.beta.amber.
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Good point. I've always thought it's a bit fishy for the Chinese people to celebrate western festivals in China, especially the ones tha have absolutely nothing to do with Chinese culture.
I don't mind celebrating mother's day, father's day or children's day, because these festivals commemorate good values which are universal.
If we just want an extra excuse for a few more days off work, I don't see why we cannot pick a famous dead Chinese who exemplify the values that we Chinese hold in high regards.
Business imperatives will prevail. Christmas is "celebrated" all over Asia and it will continue to grow in China. China is part of the world economy now, and there is no going back, the student's fears notwithstanding.
Christmas is largely a secular consumer holiday, and it's the perfect marketing tool for business. Consumers don't even need to be told to buy things: just play a Christmas jingle and we open our wallets like Pavlov's dogs.
well, i totally support those 10 PhD students.
also i would remind them about Halloween, that seems also a great deal here in Sh, when is not at all chinese.
in addition i would add that the conquer of these holidays, that are also related to older times, where solstices and equinoxes were the reason to party, until stronger cultures adapted them to their own believes as a way to eat those 'pagans' believes.
i come from south america, very catholic and christians lands in the present. and christmas is out of the discussion, it's already taken by the people, with the full coca cola santa claus, when we are in the pick of the summer and those sweated red big elfs with overgrown beards listening children's wishes are really closer to a horror movie than to a sweet given old man. but in our heads the coca cola image has won the clarity of minds and we even love them.
in all america, (south, central and north) a big movement of those who love real traditions are making a slow change with patience, helping us remember our own natural ways to celebrate the influence of the universe in our lives.
personally when i found out, last year, how famous were Halloween and Christmas in an eastern communist country i was very disappointed. so, i honestly hope that those 10 PhD help to enlighten the people's conscience and promote, as other cultures are also doing it, the respect and enjoyment of our traditional parties celebrated in our own way. including also the respect for other cultures way to party.
and to reach that, the required main ingredients are education and a clear spirituality; very commonly found on people that has university degrees and youth.
Western holidays are something new, fresh and fun. And I've heard chinese complain that chinese new year is just a time for everyone to show off how big their TV and new furniture is (and we all know how much nicer the CCTV chinese new year show looks on plasma). And the suggestion that chinese new year or mid-autumn festival find a personage to wrap itself around may backfire as that person's values probably got them killed by the same institution running the show today.
Happy Festivus and Merry Christmas!
We as a nation have no religion/belief, which could be linked to many of the social problems/ concern/etc.
nice pic btw~
Yeah, western holidays are new fresh and fun, and are often associated with increased alcohol abuse related domestic violence and road deaths,aggravation of passive aggressiveness during forced family gatherings, depression related suicides, as well as large amounts of debt from over spending. Oh, there is also the celebration of some lunatic from the middle east who thought he was god and got nailed to a pole some 2000 years ago. You know what, I will take the excuses of moon cakes, family reunions and passing of a Chinese new year over the birth and crucification of some long dead lunatic.
Nice post, troll. Yeah, you're an ass. I'm no Christian, but show some respect.
Actually, between crucifixtion and moon cakes I'm not sure which I'd choose.
Alec, you are a moron -- how do you like the name calling now?
Respect for religion? What are you gonna do next? Preaching the gospels of the flying spaghetti monster? My respect is only reserved for people who respect what I respect, not for religion or any other form of human imagination.
Not sure about which one to choose between crucifixtion and moon cakes? Let me help you out, you take the crucifiction and enjoy the pain, and I will take the moon cakes. There, we are both happy.
Yes, but at the end of the day visitor you are Chinese and therefore infinitely more inferior.
plex, I struggle to come up with an insult that fits your kind -- since even the worst kind insult decribes something infintely superior to your kind.
Maybe your infintely wise god would be able to help me here ... oh wait, he's too busy looking for virgins to reward his chosen people who want to blow themselves up in another 9-11 ... gee, I wish I could say you scums didn't deserve it -- but that's what you always wanted, isn't it?
Hey visitor,
It is easy to see how chinese culture is broken and dying when all people worship is money, power and a mass murdering child molester named Mao Ze Dong (aka Mao Is Dumb). China has an alocohol and abuse problem because all of the failings and weaknesses of China cannot be kept in the box any longer. Chinese people have debt problems because they all seek face like a starving person seeks food.
bad, desperate, pathetic China.
All Chinese holidays seem to have a strong government flavor to them. Christmas seems to be the only holiday that the PRC haven't claimed as their own. No nationalist telethons on TV, no flag waving, and no hero worship. No wonder the younger Chinese like it and the government isn't thrilled about it.
Besides, Christmas is extremely important to the Chinese economy. Most of the factories that employ most Chinese all do the majority of their business over the holidays. Makes sense that the country comes to appreciate the time of year.
No one can argue that Christmas has become largely an exercize in consumerism. But there is still a 'spirit' of Christmas - generousity, kindness and overall good cheer. If you have lived in China for any length of time, such as I (4 years), I would argue that any holiday that has these themes is welcome.
Hi bbq-lamb-skew, the Chinese culture is broken, but not as much as the traditional Christian culture. It's true that the Chinese worship money -- that's one of the things we copied from the west that I wish could have been avoided. The western is already totally corrupted, I'm just trying to stop my people from being contaminated ... I hope there is still time.
Mao was a child molester? I heard that he was influenced by the Christians and the Tibetans -- that's why it's a good thing China is still keeping all those fuckers out.
Mao is dumb? Well, he was smart enough to take China from the hands of the western world, I guess that makes the western world dumber.
China's got problems with alcohol, and the problem is probably getting out of the box -- but it's still much better than the west where the shit has been hitting the fan for the last 200 years.
Chinese people have debt problems -- sure, but we are holding hundreds of billions of dollars of debt from western countries and we are kicking millions of you fuckers out of your jobs in your pathetic countries. You will be bankrupt long before we do.
Yeah, we are not doing that great, but we are doing better than you.
JoshFresh, don't give me that "I've lived in China for XXX years" rubbish. I lived in China for 20 years and I've always enjoyed the traditional holidays. The traditional holidays in China are always about the people and their families. I don't know and I don't care why you think they've got the flavour of the government -- the government has existed for only 50 years, the traditional holidays have existed for hundreds, if not thousands of years. PRC is China, are they not entitled to claim Chinese holidays as their own?
What kind of nationlist propaganda have you seen associated with traditional Chinese holidays? What makes you think Chrismas -- the celebration of the birth of a person that represents a blood thirsty religion, is better than any traditional Chinese holiday?
Chrismas is not important to the Chinese economy, it has no cultural significance to the vast majority of the Chinese population. Our economy didn't take off because of Chrismas and it would not clapse if people stopped celebrating Chrismas. A new holiday based on Chinese culture can be easily invented to make people spend -- it would take a few years to popularize but it will.
The values of Chrismas are celebrated in pretty much all of the Chinese traditional holidays -- the generousity, kindness and overall good cheer are celerbated in the Chinese new year -- along with the value of love and friendship.
A festival is just a day that some people attach certain significance to. It's a pity that people now only pretend to be nice to each other during holidays for the sake of the "holiday spirit". I wish that the Chinese people, and every other people, would be nice to each other out of the goodness of their heart each and every day -- instead of just on a day on which some religious figure was born.
Oh God I love a good flame war . . . especially with such a belligerent and irrational troll . . .
Yes, you (the Chinese) are doing better than us (the Westerners) because you can build cheap crap cheaper than us (because there are so many Chinese who are so, so poor, and because you have no respect for human rights - another Western cultural influence - - I guess we'll take that back, along with Christmas, and your beloved leaders can grind you further into the contaminated soil of this country). Tell you what, once China starts producing real multinationals and developing innovative technology (not copied or faked), then I'll start worrying about China eclipsing our sad, decadent Western culture. Because otherwise those same (Western, Japanese, Taiwanese and European) companies that are driving China's double-digit growth will pack up and leave once raw materials get too expensive (i.e., when China's environment has been completely raped) or the standard of living rises enough that Vietnam and Indonesia look good again. And then you and all the other nationalists can fester, sitting around telling yourself how great you are, and how you were exploited all over again, not even considering that it was your inability to adapt and evolve that caused your downfall AGAIN.
China has a lot to offer the world. It would be great if, decades from now, the Chinese New Year was recognized in the West and Chinese culture celebrated. Because there is a lot to celebrate. BUT . . . one thing that will not be celebrated is the virulent, oppressive nationalism the Chinese schools and leaders are cramming down their people's throats to produce such throwbacks as 'visitor' here.
Christmas in the West has become as much a secular as a religious holiday. I'm not a Christian but Christmas is the most important holiday for my family. Yes, it is an excuse to buy (and get) presents. But it's more about family - i.e., it's a lot like Chinese New Year for Chinese, and celebrates the same values. Sorry if only the rampant consumerism has translated for you. I wonder if that is a failing of Western or Eastern culture - honestly, I don't know, probably a bit of both.
I wonder - - could 'visitor' be nanheygrouchuan or another China-hating expat trying to stir the hornet's nest? Seems like the vitriol is a little TOO over the top . . .
. . . and the writing a little too good. Yes, 'visitor' is definately an imposter. Can't believe I got suckered. doh.
Good one Alec. Yes China is producing large quantities of cheap crap, but most of it ends up in your advanced western countries. I guess that's just the law of supply-and-demand, you want crap, we will give you crap, you get what you deserve.
It's also funny that on the one hand, there are western hypocrites like you and lamb-skew who jerk off all day around by putting China down; but on the other hand, there are western politicians/power brokers like Michael Pillsbury and some American congressmen who've dedicate their entire lives screaming the "China threat" on top of their lungs. Tell me, which ones of you are the stupid?
Our own multinationals and innovative technologies? Don't worry about it, we were on top of the world for around 1000 years before you guys overtook us 200 years ago, and we will be on top again. It may take us a while, but we will get there.
Chrismas is secular? I guess it's as secular as today's American society -- which means it's not secular at all, in case you missed the meaning of my analogy. I don't see you guys treating traditional Chinese holidays as your own national holidays in your countries, and I don't blame you, so don't you get on the high horse and tell me it's wrong to oppose atheists Chinese mindlessly celebrating Chrismas which has no link to the traditional Chinese culture in China.
Chrismas is an important holiday for you and your family? Good for you. We have Chinese new year and the moon cake festival for that, so I guess we are covered on the family thing. If you don't know what the moon cake festival is about, maybe you should do some reading on it -- especially if you live in China -- you know, when in Rome ...
What makes you think I'm bbq-lamb-skew? Did I start the flaming war? Did I say anything that's unreasonable or bash any one or any religion in my initial post? Why did you call me a troll when you give a free pass to lamb-skew the resident China-basher? You called him a "China-hating" expat, that means you know what he's about, so how come you have not criticised him on this issue? Do you think he's special or something?
My writting is a little too good? You've never met a native Chinese who can competently write in English? Is that a compliment on my English writing skill or a reflection on your own inability to write in Chinese?
You've only seen a handful of my posts and you are ready to draw the conclusion that I'm an imposter? What exactly are you trying to imply? A native Chinese cannot possibly possess my kind of skills in writing in English?
Christmas is not important to the Chinese economy? Considering 40% of retail sales in America are during that period, I suggest you ask any factory owner if Christmas is important to them.
Believe it or not, Christmas is very secular. And in my opinion Chinese people like the holiday because its a time where they can celebrate with their families and not required to wave a red flag or watch a military official on CCTV.
Of course, you're right - something will be invented to satiate people such as yourselves during this time of year. Christmas with 'Chinese characteristics': Let's see, Santa Claus will be from outside Harbin and the 'elves' will be forced labor made up of people that didn't agree with the CCP. And of course, CCTV will hold a 2 day telethon with several performances by the military choir.
JoshFresh, you are comparing apples with oranges now. I was talking about how pointless it was for atheists Chinese to celebrate Chrismas in China, what the hell does this celebration have anything to do with the Chrismas sales in America? Are you saying the Americans would somehow stop ording goods from China if the mainlanders stopped celebrating Chrismas? That's just nonsense.
As far as the Chrismas sales in America is concerned, I see you point, but I also think you are exaggerating the importance of Chrismas. If there was no Chirsmas, the Americans would most certainly find another reason to go on a shopping frenzy. Americans, or any people, wouldn't just all of a sudden reduce 40% of their annual shopping because one of their holidays is gone.
I don't think any more holidays need to be invented. Chrismas is already very close to the new year which is normally a few weeks from the lunar new year anyway. Before western festivals were introduced to China, our shopping frenzies normally took place just before the lunar new year -- which would shut most of the country down for at least a few days.
I don't think I've ever had a traditional holiday that's related to flag waving. I don't know where you get those ridiculous ideas from. China is not yet America, we don't make our children recite oaths to show their allegiance to their country in their classes -- unless they apply to join the CCP's youth organisations. Our national day celebration is like a tea party compared with July the 4th celebration in America. Our patriotic propaganda movies went out of fashion almost 10 years ago -- you get at least 5 of those in America each year -- not to mention the countless terrorism dramas that gets released almost on a monthly basis. Please, don't lecture me on nationalism -- it just makes you look extremly hypocritical.
A Chrismas of Chinese characteristic? How about no Chrismas at all? What's so special about Santa who is a lie anyway? Why do you want to spread more superstition and religious propaganda to the children of China? What's next? Telling children they will go to hell if they don't behave nicely?
As I said before, I wish people would be nice to each other all the time, and I don't like the fact that people only pretend to be nice to each other during some festivals.
OK, you must not live in the same China I live in.. Where businesses can be fined for not displaying the flag during National Day... Where all universities have a cirriculum with mandatory classes on Mao and 'Socialism'. Where all history lessons on culture and holidays are corrupted by 'official' interpretations.
Every facet of Chinese life is an opportunity to encourage nationalism and reinforce the idea that the CCP are what it means to be Chinese. Every holiday in China is one of those opportunities.
Anyways, regarding Christmas - I really don't care. My point is that the old guard of nationalist and conservative groups who are organizing 'protests' against Christmas are doing so because they are uncomfortable with China taking part in anything that isn't (a) officially part of their '5000' year history or (b) like all other celebrations, in some way celebrating the legitimacy of the resident military dictatorship.
Merry Christmas. I think I hear Santa on the roof.
I love all holidays. No matter what culture. Merry Christmas to all, and to the animals as well.
Ok, JoshFresh, please educate me. I was born and raised in China and I've never ever heard of anyone or any business fined for displaying the flag during national day. My dad runs a business in southern China and he doesn't even own a national flag and he's never had a problem with the authority.
I have only been enrolled in one Chinese university so I cannot speak for others. To be honest I thought it was extremly stupid to teach the history of the CCP as part of my engineering curriculum (the subject was not just about Mao who is openly criticised even in high school history tests). I actually failed my CCP history subject and still finished my course without a problem. Nobody in my year gave a fuck about the history class, we forgot everything about the subject as soon as the exam was over.
Why don't you educate me on how every facet of Chinese life is an opportunity to encourage nationalism? How exactly is CCP succeeding in making Chinese people nationalistic and how exactly have they been using the moon cake festival or the Chinese new year to reinforce the idea of what it means to be a Chinese? Why do you think it's wrong for a Chinese to know what it means to be a Chinese?
I lost faith in CCP when I was 9 years old -- that was almost 20 years ago. None of my friends or families have any faith or trust in CCP. China is our country, we know how things work here. Please don't criticise our choices if you cannot offer a feasible solution.
I'm not a member of the CCP, and I'm not an old guard of nationalist (they are actually in Taiwan). As far as this Shanghaiist article is concerned, the people who are against Chrismas are current Phd students in leading Chinese universities. You'd really have to twist the facts to call them "old guard nationalists". They are against Chrismas because they feel a large segment of the Chinese society are mindlessly following a holiday which they do not understand. They believe that this is a reflection of a deeper problem in the Chinese society: we are losing confidence in the strength and merits of our own culture and we are losing our identities.
My princple is to question everything and never do anything without understanding it first. In this case, it seems to me that the 10 PhD students were correct on the issue of Chrismas celebration in China. That's why I support them.
I firmly believe in the freedom of expression and belief. Therefore, I totally respect your rights to practise your culture/religion in China -- as long as you respect our laws and customs.
Enjoy your holidays, and maybe call your building supervisor to investigate that noise on your roof.
JoshFresh, I don't know which part of China you live in, but in all my life in China, I've never heard of any business that got into trouble for not displaying the national flag during national day. My dad owns a business in southern China and he doesn't even own a national flag.
I've only been enrolled in one Chinese university and I did have a mandatory subject on the history of CCP -- there was actually not much about Mao or socialism. The CCP has only existed for about 80-90 years which hardly count for all our (5000 years of) history and culture. Only three holidays can be associated with CCP: the national day, the army day and the Party day -- none of which are traditional. So, I'm curious to hear your explanation on how CCP has mananged to corrupt the lunar new year and the moon cake festival with "official" interpretations -- these festivals have existed far longer than the CCP has.
I'd also like to hear your explanation on how every facet of Chinese life is used by the CCP to encourage nationalism and CCP is what it means to be a Chinese. I lost my faith in CCP when I was 9-years old -- that was almost 20 years ago. I've never met a single Chinese who believes CCP is what it means to be a Chinese, or even a good government. If you claim to have met such a person, I'd say you are either lieing or incredibly gullible.
I don't know who you are refering to by "the old guard of nationalist and conservative groups". The old guard of nationalist are in Taiwan and they are about to die out. As far as this particular Shanghiist article is concerned, the people opposing the celebration of Chrismas are 10 current PhD students. You'd have to really twist the facts to call them "old guard of nationalist and conservative groups".
The reason that 10 PhD students oppose the celebration of Chrismas in China has nothing to do with the party line or upholding the authority of the CCP. They are opposing it because they realise that most of their country man who are celebrating Chrismas have totally no idea what Chrismas came about. In other words, these PhD students see a lot of their country men as a bunch of sheep who are mindlessly following someone else's tradition while neglecting their own. I like to question and understand everything before accepting it, I hate being a sheep and I hate it when I see other people (Chinese or not) being sheep. That's why I support those 10 PhD students.
JoshFresh, happy holidays, and maybe ask your building's supervisor to check out that noise on your roof.
but visitor, you are just being another sheep, following other people's thoughts.
And I am not sure if you are disagreeing with the fact that education and media in China are engineered to re-inforce the government, but that would be wrong. Also, I am not sure if you disagree that the vast majority of Chinese people are nationalistic, but if you are then again you have to be wrong.
"we are losing confidence in the strength and merits of our own culture and we are losing our identities."
You are wrong here too - and you are falling prey to exactly the kind of scaremongering that we experience in the west. (also, you are being a sheep as this opinion was probably instilled in to you)
What I mean is, we always hear about how our traditions etc. are being eroded and how it ain't like it used to be . . .
Well firstly Chinese people are surer of their identities now more than ever, and they are not lacking in belief! You even said yourself (***in a nationalistic way***) that "we" (China) will 'rule the world again'.
It seems that you see yourself as an individual free thinker but in fact you are writing what has been written before and often. Maybe don't pigeon-hole yourself into X or Y opinion.
Beyond Christianity, Christmas has a wider appeal of general goodwill towards complete strangers and happiness. There are many stories about the general lack of goodwill, manners, couth, sophistication, goodwill, cheer, politeness and social justice among even China's generation of newly wealthy and successful, not to mention the hordes of people who push, pull and elbow their way through crowds while spitting, deficating, urinating or tossing wads of infected mucus everywhere, or tossing garbage out onto the street.
As for Mao, he had no influence from Tibetans or Christians, he was a power sick country bum from the beginning. His first accomplishment in getting power was to threaten to kill himself unless his dad stopped making him perform labor and study academic subjects. Basically, Mao liked to lay about and read books while convincing others to kill for him and allowing his servants to rape and pillage as reward...while Mao laid about reading, drinking milk and eating. Mao's most telling quote was "I eat alot and I crap alot".
Chinese are embracing christmas, christianity, buddhism and islam because they are finding their lives to be empty. The dirty old men that constitute the CCP are nothing but dirty old men and a person can only buy so much crap before asking themselves "why don't I feel any better, is there more to life?".
Christmas reprensents what chinese society and traditions cannot provide for chinese people.
As a Chinese American I feel ticked off and embarassed by both sides of this stupid little flame war.
Christianity is rather bloodthirsty as far as history goes but hey, it's my religion, and there's a reason why it's spread so far.
And to all you people putting down Chinese traditions and holidays because you need to argue with some troll - well you suck too.
These are not the gratuitous traditions of some government and I'd be grateful if you didn't paint it as such just because you want to tick some guy off. You're ticking off people aka me who actually really respect holidays. Chinese New Years is like the coolest holiday ever for me because of the festivities and spirt that goes around at that time, and Christmas is too because of its meaning.
So got eat a raw egg all of you, you bunch of heathens.
Rodge, please explain to me why I am another sheep, and how I am following other people's thoughts. I oppose the celebration of Chrismas in China by atheists Chinese, because I know that these people do not understand the meaning and origin of Chrismas and they are simply following a western/Christian tradition because it seems to be the popular thing to do. On this issue, I've made an informed and logical choice, so how is this being a sheep?
The definition of nationalistic is: fanatically patriotic, or devotion to the interests or culture of a particular nation including promoting the interests of one country over those of others. Now, please tell me how the media and education of China is engineered to make every Chinese fanatically patriotic or promoting the interests of China over those of others. Furthermore, please tell me how you came to the conclusion that the vast majority of Chinese are fanatically patriotic and promoting the interests of China over those of othres. Remember, China is no America.
I fall to the scaremongering? You have to be kidding me. A huge number of the western people were the ones who fell for the scaremongering and supported their governments in the Iraqi war, please don't equate me with them. You accuse me of falling to scaremongering, yet you produce no evidience to support your argument, this just makes you look stupid. It's common sense in China that the good traditional Chinese qualities have been diminishing ever since the cultural revolution and the openning up. Chinese people are becoming more and more selfish, money worshipping and less honorable. I hope I don't need to list the corruption in our goverment, school, and hospitals to convince you.
We are more sure of our identity more than ever? Who the hell are you to make that claim? Have you been with our civilisation for the last 2000 years? Identity is much much more than a passport or your genetic makeup, it's about the values that we uphold. When I say we are losing confidence in the strength and merits of our own culture and our identity, I'm saying that we no longer uphold the good values that our ancestors held in high regards, and this is bad for our society.
Our tradition used to be like 夜不闭户, 路不拾遗, we used to polite and honest to each other. These qualities are really lacking in our society.
Don't put words in my mouth either, I've never ever said " "we" (China) will 'rule the world again" -- never. I have absolutely no interest in ruling the world. Confucius said "己所不欲，勿施于人", I absolutely agree with it. I don't want other countries to rule my country, therefore I will not want my country to rule over others.
I agree with a lot of things written by other people, that's not the mark of a sheep, a sheep is someone who agrees with others without thinking for itself. I make sure I question and understand everything before accepting it, that's what you call a free thinker. I also backup my claims with logic and fact, that's the mark of a good and logical thinker. You, on the other hand, have produced neither logic nor evidence to back up your claims, and you've even resorted to making up lies to prove your point. That's the mark of an incompetent basher.
Lamb-skewer, Christiantiy, as well as religions in general, are just a bunch of lies used by some greedy people to gain control over the weak minded. It's a drug to the brain and a cancer to the human society. There is nothing that Chrismas or any religious holiday can offer that's not already in traditional Chinese holidays. We celebrate family value, good wills to our peers, love and friendship in our new years celebration and our moon cake festival. You just choose not to see it with your tinted China-bashing glasses. We do spit, shit and urinate in China, but so do westerners in their own countries -- oh, did you know that in western countries, it's considered a cool thing to have sex in public places?
If I have to compare Mao with Jesus, I'd have to say Mao is infintely better. I mean, Jesus was just a bastard son of some middle eastern slut 2000 years ago, he abandoned his family in the first chance he got and never looked back. Then he just went around the middle east gathering a bunch of power-hungry lunatics and preaching his fantasy of a god -- while shamelessly stealing food from the needy by promising them an ever lasting after life. Mao's legacy includes establishing an independent China, messing up our economy for 20 years and famines that probably killed millions of people -- but Jesus's legacy makes Mao look like a holy saint. Jesus is responsible for setting up one of the most blood thirsty religions this planet has ever seen, this religion and its supporters have caused the death of 10s of millions of innocent people, it has held back and is holding back the advance of science, and it's going to cause more deaths of innocent people in the future. Jesus's most telling quote was "You cannot be a follower of mine if you don't abandon your family first". Jesus was probably gay himself -- that's why he oppose homosexuality to cover up his own gayness.
I feel sorry for my country men who fall for the lies of religion, and I will do everything I can (which is not much) to make them see the reason. I hope China will not become just another country ruled by the lies of religion.
Chrismas is a lie, it always has been and it always will be, it's like a good looking slut who slowly poisons your mind until you don't even know who you are. Enjoy the 9/11 and the suicide bombings.
Dana, enjoy your holidays. I don't have any problem with you, because you are a Christian and at least on this issue your choice is on informed one. I respect your rights and choice to be a Christian -- even though I don't agree with you.
There are reasons why Chrisianity has spreaded so far for so long. But do not use that as a reason to worship it. AIDS and flu have also been around for a while and they are affecting a huge number of people in pretty much every country, but everyone is trying to wipe them out. Just because something has lasted a long time and spreaded really wide, it does not necessarily have to be good.
Christianity is just a bunch of lies used by some greedy people to get control over the weak-minded . . . . oh, wait, I thought that was Communism . . .
Seriously, though, it's really not worth picking apart your indictment of Christianity and the West, since so much of it is misinformed verbal diarrhea. Jesus stole food from the needy? Where exactly are you getting this?
To clarify - extremism in almost every form is bad, whether religion (Muslim jihadists, American fundamentalists) or economics (China's runaway capitalism and greed ravaging the environment and people, or the American people's insatiable appetite for consumer good), etc etc.
You, visitor, remind me of those religious extremists, blind to reality and spewing venom, probably because of some inferiority complex. Ironic that what you really hate about religion (and is actually only a small part of religion, though a very visible part) is the same kind of attitude and thinking that clearly forms your worldview. HAH! By the way, I'm an atheist, and probably hate fundamentalists more than you do. But I at least can recognize the good that religion does bring. Enjoy your hate.
"If I have to compare Mao with Jesus, I'd have to say Mao is infintely better."
Did someone actually say that!?
Merry Christmas 'visitor' ... you don't need to be Christian to enjoy the spirits!
Happy holidays, gwen, you don't need Chrismas to celebrate the love of your family and the friendship of your friends, or any other good human values.
Alec, please back up your claims with facts and logic. Communism is a political ideology, and it has failed in pretty much every country that tried it. It's common sense that China is no longer a communist country, so what's the problem here?
You've stated that you are not a Christian yourself, so why don't you tell me why you are not a Christian? Why is it that you don't believe in the teachings of Christianity? If the preachings of Christianty is fale, then logically it is just a bunch of lies.
You accuse me of "misinformed verbal diarrhea" -- yet you produce no evidence or logic. Jesus did not always produce any goods and services with his own labour after he started preaching, and he mostly relied on the donation of his believers to survive. The only thing he provided was religious teaching which was based on the concept of god. If god does not exist, then his teachings were based on lies. Telling lies to people in exchange for their money, food or services is considered fraud, or stealing.
I'm against any form of extremism or fundamentalism -- because they imply believeing something unconditionally. We can argue the fundamentalism nature of religions in general, but that'd be off-topic too much. I respect the freedom of worship 100%, and I had no intention of attacking any religion in my initial post, so don't accuse me of being intolerant. I agree that China's runaway capitalism at the cost of the environment and social inequality is extremly bad, and I'd do anything to help China reverse these damages. But I don't think religion or the celebration of Chrismas is the answer. If you have a good idea, I'd love to hear about it.
You can attack me all you want, but so far, I have pretty much countered every single argument of yours with logic and fact -- and you haven't produced any meaning response yet. Atheism is all about reality and that's what sets it apart from religions. Atheism is not a religion and it's not fundamentalism. Let's not argue about the semantics of atheism here. As far as I'm concerned, being an atheist means to always question everything and never believe anything unconditionally. I have no loyalty to any belief or theory, and my confidence in any theory is only as strong as the evidence that supports it. Can you say the same about yourself?
If you look at my initial post, it has absolutely nothing against religion, and I was only criticising my fellow Chinese who mindlessly follow traditions without understanding them first.
plex, well, you are right, it's really an understatement to say that Mao is infintely better than Jesus. Happy now?
visitor, you are a mean spirited person. I was just sharing some genuine good will, which this season calls for, and you throw it back in my face! Christmas is a good thing, a wonderful thing, a time for everyone regardless of creed to share a moment of peace. Beyond the commercialisation, it has a deeper meaning for most people, and I'm sorry you can't feel it, but I extend my best Christmas wishes to you nevertheless. Merry Christmas visitor.
And if you look back, visitor, I had no issue with your original post. It was only when you made a vicious attack with nothing to back up your argument that I responded.
Clearly you have never read the bible and have only a rudimentary understanding of Christianity. Why am I not a Christian? I went to Catholic school, have read every word of the bible (and some of it is awful - check out Slate's blogging the bible series to see how awful) and have read many, many books on faith and Christianity. I didn't believe when I was 12, and I don't now. I'm just not hardwired to accept this on faith. But I will respect other people's rights to believe what they want so long as they do not harm others - which is why I'm against fundamentalism but not the more moderate aspects of Christianity (or Islam, or Judaism, or whatever). The assertions you make are ridiculous. Let's see, lets start with:
1: 'Jesus was the bastard son of a middle-eastern slut'. That's not mean-spirited at all. Even assuming the basic facts of the story are true (Mary was a real person, and got pregnant out of wedlock) does that make her a 'slut'? Pre-marital sex has existed for as long as humanity. Sounds like you might also have a problem with women.
2: 'He abandoned his family' - who, his mother? At age 30?
3: He 'set up one of the most blood-thirsty religions this world has ever seen'. Ummm . . . Jesus didn't found Christianity. He had a message of hope and charity (well, except for some notable examples, like towards homosexuals - which apparently you share - 'Jesus hates homosexuals to cover up his own gayness' - and if what if he was gay - so what?), and over the centuries that message has been skewed by those in power for their own selfish ideological ends. Mao on the other hand was perfectly aware his policies were killing millions and proceeded to carry through with them. Deaths Jesus knowingly caused - 0. Deaths Mao knowingly caused - oh, I don't know, 30 million? Hmmm . . .and Mao is 'infinitely better'? Blaming Jesus for atrocities committed a thousand years later is like blaming Bismark for what Hitler did, or the Yellow Emperor for what has happened to the Tibetans.
Also - the definition of 'lies' is a delibirate falsehood. If I tell you something that I believe to be true then it is not a 'lie' - it is just something that may not be true. Christians do not 'lie' about their religion, they honestly believe it to be the truth. I believe Jesus was a historical person and that he honestly believed what he preached (which was a good message, if you actually investigate it, and has little in common with the fundamentalist creeds that emerged later). I also believe he was deluded (not really the son of God). I consider him to be a great philosopher who presented what was a very radical message for the time (the poor are worthy, and should be cared for - some other civilizations might have benefited from similar thinking). But he was not a 'liar'. Your English is very good for a non-native speaker (assuming that is true) but you don't really understand this word.
If you don't want the Chinese to celebrate Christmas, fine. I think that's fairly justified because you're right - it's not their cultural heritage. I don't care if they do or not. But at least get some basic information of what Christmas is, and what Christianity is, and what the West is, before you start spewing bile.
Since 1949, the CCP has persecuted more than half the people in China. An estimated 60 million to 80 million people died from unnatural causes. This number exceeds the total number of deaths in both World Wars combined.
Visitor, I hope you find whatever it is you're looking for, you seem quite the lost soul.
Jesus loves you, Merry Christmas.
gwen, I'm sorry you misunderstood me. What I was trying to say was that people should not wait till Chrismas to celebrate the love of their family, the friendship of their friends, and other good human values. We live only once, and we should enjoy and cherish each day of our life as if it's the last, we should show our love to our family and friends, and just be nice to everyone else each and everyday. I don't believe we need Jesus, the promise of a happy afterlife or the fear of an eternity in hell to be a decent and loving person. I choose to rely on the kindness of my fellow human beings, instead of Jesus or god. You've made your choice, and I've made mine. I respect your choice and in turn I expect you to respect mine. I will not make you my enemy unless you make me yours. Enjoy your holidays.
Bob Chippens. I respect your religious views and I have no problem with it. I don't believe in anything supernatural and I expect you to respect that too. I've already found what I'm looking for: a loving family whom I love beyond anything, a group of friends whom I enjoy hanging out with, and a rewarding job. Thank you, but I'm not looking for anything at the moment. Please enjoy your holidays and love your fellow human beings more.
Well, that was nicely put visitor. Exactly my perspective, actually. Merry Christmas.
Alec, I don't like religions, they are just theories and I have no respect for theories because my respect is reserved to only people. By default I respect every person irrespective whether they are religious or atheist until they start disrespecting me or the things I respect.
Please don't assume that I know nothing about Christianity, I studied the bible with Jehovah's witnesses for 3 months, and I really really like and respect those people and would invite them to my house in a heart beat -- even though I didn't agree with their religious views in the end. I've got 4 copies of the bible in my house, on top of a whole heap of watch tower publications. I've also got a copy of Richard Dawkins' "The God Delusion" which has bible references pretty much throughout and I've verified these references with the bibles I have wheneverＩsee them. My best friend is a Seventh-day Adventist and I work with a Hindu and a Catholic. Trust me when I say I've had plenty of exposure to Christianity and religions.
I also speak differently to different people and if you look at the history of my posts, they are only as malicious as those that they are replying to. My second post on this topic -- in reply to lamb-skewer, was the first one that bashed religions and Christianity -- why? Because lamb-skewer is the resident China-basher on this website and he has been given a free pass from almost everyone to bash China whenver and however he feels like -- I do not see anyone including you criticising him for that. I also don't believe he can be reasoned with -- his sole purpose on this website is to bash China and degrade everything Chinese. That's why I don't see why it would be so wrong to take a shot at what he holds dear. If the mods on this website had been doing their job, i.e. enforcing their own commenting guidelines, lamb-skewer's China bashing would have stopped ages ago and none of this flaming war about religion and Christianity would have happened.
(1) Nobody knows who Jesus's biological father was, every Christian just assumes it was god, but since I don't believe in god, I'd have to say that Mary had a sex with a man who didn't wish to accept Jesus as his son. This fits Jesus to the definition of "bastard" perfectly. I have absolutely no problem with women or single parents or children of single parents -- as I said before that I respect every human being by default -- until they disrespect me or the things I respect. However, Catholics do have a problem with pre-marital sex, and single parents, and women in general. So I'm only pointing out the hypocrisy of Christianity.
(2) If you read the parts of the bible where Jesus deals with his mother, you'd see that he's short, to the point of brusquenes with his own mother, and he also encouraged his followers to abandon their families to follow him.
(3) Ok, now you are just not making any sense at all. The whole of Christianity is based on the teachings of Jesus, if he was not responsible for Christianity, then who is? I actually don't have a problem with homosexuals at all, and I totally support homosexual marriages and I wish I could make them legal in China and every other country in the world. I made it clear that I had no concrete evidence of Jesus being gay, however, there has been studies that show that a significant number of homophobic people in fact have homosexual tendencies, and they suppress these tendencies by acting violently towards people who are openly gay. Given Jesus's homophobic teachings, I suspect that he was actually gay himself which would make him a hypocrite.
Now about Mao, I don't know where you get your information from, you do know Mao personally, and neither did I. I do not believe he would have gone through with his catastrophic ecnomical policies had he known the consequence. I don't think he was a monster. You cannot blame the famines all on him either. It's just not fair. Mao didn't personally enforce his policies when he knew people were starving, the implementations at the local level should bear as much as blame as Mao did -- because they were the ones that did everything they could to hide the failures of Mao's policies. Mao's policies probably wouldn't have lasted a few months had he known what was actually happening.
I'm not going to say more about Jesus and other religious figures. It's a fact that Chrisitiantiy and other religions have been responsible for countless wars and oppressions in the past, and they are still responsible for most of the wars in the current world, and as long as they exist, they will cause more wars and suffering. These wars and opppressions are based on the teachings of Christianity and interpreted by the representatives of Christianity. Yellow Emperor didn't teach us to do anything, he was just one of our ancestors -- if he did exist. The proper counterpart of Jesus in Chinese history would probably be Confucius whose teachings had been used by the emperors to enslave the minds of the Chinese people. However, just like Jesus's teachings, there are some gems in Confucius's teachings and I would happily agree with/embrace them.
The definition of "lie" is "a statement that deviates from or perverts the truth", and the definition of a "liar" is "a person who has lied or who lies repeatedly". I admit that lieing unintentionally is different from lieing intentionally -- but the damage they do is probably the same if people believed them. The line between intentional lies and unintentional lies are also rather blurred when it comes to religion. When a religious person rejects overwhelming scientific and logical evidence against his/her religion and still insists the teachings of his/her religion are the truth, then is it an intentional lie or unintentional lie? Do you think the Imams lied to the 9/11 suicide bombers about heaven and virgins? Do you think it makes any difference to the victims of 9/11 whether the Imams lied intentionally or unintentionally?
It's good that you admit my views on Chinese people celebrating Chrismas were right. I give you credit for that. Now it's time for you to man up a bit more and criticise the China bashers on this website.
I think Christmas should still be celebrated in China under restricted conditions. For example, in the West, there is a "Chinatown". I propose the creation of "West Town" or some sorts, in major Chinese cities, where Western festivals can be celebrated (only in these areas). Media, news, and business outlets should be regulated in propagating the Christmas mood, or message. I, for one, advocate the strengthening of local traditional Chinese festivals in China. Festivals such as Spring festival (Chinese New Year), Mid-Autumn festival (Mooncakes), Qixi (Chinese's Valentine), Qingming festival (somewhat similar to Halloween), and etc must all be encouraged. Ways to encourage the mood can include things such as discounts/sales in shopping markets, special TV/cinema movie releases in the weeks preceding the festivals, frequent advert message, and etc. If China wants to truly become a modern, respected power, then it must have intact preserved traditional/independent culture, not one who is simply a slave to Western thoughts/culture.
As for religion, well, I think all religions are somewhat questionable in the most rational way (to put it kindly), but the best choice for China is still to respect the ways of Confucianism, Taoism, and Chan Buddhism. They are "olds". But all good teachings are eternal.
Alec, thank you for your kind words in post 42. I hope that I've shown you that I'm a reaonable and kind person. I probably haven't succeeded in doing that, but we will see.
@Zhicheng
It won't happen because our culture is superior to your primitive rubbish culture, and you will be assimilated into it whether you like it or not!
Look at the way you dress, what you wear, the music you listen to, the language you are writing in now, the appliance you are using to write it, your... everything. China can fit into the system, but you should not be so arrogant as to believe that you are its equal.
I love it how they go on about 5000 years of culture and history and yet they never figured out how to be clean.
OK visitor, we can agree to disagree on a few points. And I don't think you're a bad person - I think you exaggerated your feelings because of your anger towards nan-whatever and his china-bashing posts. I think the regulars give nan a free pass because we all know what he is about. But I could see how a Chinese person would want to do the same thing to the West that he does to China. Anyway, water under the bridge. Happy holidays.
Alec, I don't understand your attitude of "the regulars give nan a free pass because we all know what he is about". This just totally defies all logic and reasons. What does this imply? It's ok to bash China on a regularly basis? The regulars here agree with the China bashing? The regulars here find his China bashing amusing? It is also self-evident that lamb-skewer is not the only regular China basher on this website. You don't have to look further than posts 46 and 47.
I resent double standards, and I hope I don't have to explain why. It's ok if you don't want to actively oppose the China bashing for whatever reason, but please don't oppose me when I retaliate. So, what's it gonna be?
Santa is a lie??? Please say it ain't so.
CJ
visitor, you did say that 'we will rule again'. It's still in a comment on this very website.
"It's common sense in China that the good traditional Chinese qualities have been diminishing ever since the cultural revolution and the openning up. Chinese people are becoming more and more selfish, money worshipping and less honorable."
Yeah the good qualities such as murdering your neighbour, torturing your neighbour, civil wars, foot-binding, throwing away baby girls (oh wait that still happens).
You are a pretty sad and brain-washed (especially about Mao) individual, visitor. In the last few messages you don't even have a point, just wailing for the sake of it.
Anyone could say you are 'Christianity-bashing', using your 'logic'.
Just
Rodge, if you are so sure about what I said, why don't you find it for me.
I also said "good traditional Chinese qualities", the key adjective here being "good". Do you consider murdering and torturing your neighbour, civil wars, foot binding, and throwing away baby girls good qualities? I don't.
Oh by the way, "murdering and torturing your neighbour, civil wars, foot binding, and throwing away baby girls" also happen on a daily basis in western christian countries, so don't pretend to be innocent.
You are pretty pathetic as a brained-washed fuckwit by the propagandas of your own government and media -- the sad thing is that you are actually proud of it. You've never had a point in any of your posts, you are just wasting oxygen and the bandwidth of this webiste. Hey I got an idea, why don't you drop dead this moment and go to paradise.
I am criticising Christianity with facts, you fuckwit. You wouldn't know what logic was even if it bit you on your nose.
haha, the little guy gets riled easily.
and this
"also happen on a daily basis in western christian countries"
is typical. I never stated that it didn't happen. Enjoy the rest of your day visitor. If you relax and get some perspective you might not be this childish forever.
What about a sustainable, meaningful tradition of science and technology? When you accept western thought-systems, you inevitably accept our values, which ultimately, are universal values.
Bottom line: this would be a nation of rice farmers were it not for western imports.
visitor, why don't you log off, find your tiny penis and jerk it.
mao is better than Jesus? mao killed tens of millions of his own people and defiled little girls (and ate like a pig and didn't brush his teeth...ever). Jesus didn't kill anyone.
How do you feel about Islam visitor? Both religions are far superior to mao worship or any sort of "values" the chinese government can pinch off.
Sick mao, bad china.
Rodge, if your accusations for China also applies to your own society, I don't see why you can be on the moral high horse to criticise us. Please enjoy your holiday, and maybe grow another brain cell to double your intelligence.
M, the western society was deeply rooted in religion and superstition as China was, the industrial revolution and rapid advance of technology only took place in the last 300 or so years. I've always believed in sustainable, meaningful, scientific and logical way of developing a country, you won't get an arguement from me on that one. However, I don't believe those would conflict with the good traditional Chinese culture, and I don't believe all western traditions and holidays are scientific either.
plex, when I log off, I find my penis burried deep in your mother's mouth, your sister's mouth, your wife's mouth and your daughter's mouth. Honestly, I've never seen such a bunch of cook-hungry dirty sluts in my entire life -- and they are so ugly as well!! They also want me to butt-fuck them until they pass out, saying that it would just be like in those triple-penetration black-on-white internet porn flicks. I'm not sure what they are talking about, but I just cannot lower myself to that extent. I guess I should have considered a bit more when I signed up to the charity of saving-a-tree-by-feeding-an-ugly-slut-with-your-cock.
Lamb-skewer, Jesus used to get high by sucking pig's genital, so Mao ownes Jesus. Islam and Christianity are the perfect match for each other, hopefully they will continue to kill each other like they've been doing for the past 1000 years and wipe each other out.
Shanghaiist, your biased censorship sucks.
Rodge, if your accusations for China also applies to your own society, I don't see why you can be on the moral high horse to criticise us. Please enjoy your holiday, and maybe grow another brain cell to double your intelligence.
M, the western society was deeply rooted in religion and superstition as China was, the industrial revolution and rapid advance of technology only took place in the last 300 or so years. I've always believed in sustainable, meaningful, scientific and logical way of developing a country, you won't get an arguement from me on that one. However, I don't believe those would conflict with the good traditional Chinese culture, and I don't believe all western traditions and holidays are scientific either.
plex, when I log off, I find my penis burried deep in your mother's mouth, your sister's mouth, your wife's mouth and your daughter's mouth. Honestly, I've never seen such a bunch of cook-hungry dirty sluts in my entire life -- and they are so ugly as well!! They also want me to butt-fuck them until they pass out, saying that it would just be like in those triple-penetration black-on-white internet porn flicks. I'm not sure what they are talking about, but I just cannot lower myself to that extent. I guess I should have considered a bit more when I signed up to the charity of saving-a-tree-by-feeding-an-ugly-slut-with-your-cock.
Lamb-skewer, Jesus used to get high by sucking pig's genital, so Mao ownes Jesus. Islam and Christianity are the perfect match for each other, hopefully they will continue to kill each other like they've been doing for the past 1000 years and wipe each other out.
Shanghaiist, your biased censorship sucks.
My suggestion for celebrating Xmas:
Visit this site:
http://www.centurychina.com/cgi-bin/anyboard.cgi/plaboard/?cmd=get&cG=33736313333393&zu=33373631333339&v=2&gV=0&p=
Visit the following site for my original post:
http://www.centurychina.com/cgi-bin/anyboard.cgi/plaboard/?cmd=get&cG=33736313333393&zu=33373631333339&v=2&gV=0&p=
Belated Merry Maomas
The only simliarity is the paunch, I imagine Santa Mao would have a sleigh pulled by peasants and driven by nubile girls and fully stocked with milk and chicken as Santa Mao put little red books under everyone's "socialist tree".
@M and foreigners,
Science and technology is not exclusively Western culture. Chinese invented many things including the one that the West eventually used it against Chinese themselves: gunpowder.
Western values are universal and superior?? What are those? Is it their arrogance? Hypocrisy? Obesity? Self-centered life? Fast foods? Hippies? Free sex? Self-proclaimed "The True Religion": Christianity? Nazism? If you want some compliments, fine. We adopted Communism in the past (also Western), and that brought us nowhere.
Just because Chinese are using Western goods, how does that make Western values superior?? I don't understand. So, when Westerners are using paper, banknotes, eating pastas, will that make Chinese culture superior as well? What nonsense comparison this makes.
Let's try to be a matured rational person. I don't want to get involved in this "Who Is More Superior" popularity contest. As a Chinese, I am not brought up to believe that China and Chinese values will rule the world as supreme leader. I am however, brought up to love and respect my traditional culture and learn from outsiders, whenever needed.
It is very ignorant and racist of you to consider us (non-Westerners) as primitive. I can forgive you for saying such immature words but you certainly need to learn perspectives from people of other countries.
Anyways, this topic concerns only Chinese. Foreigners are not important to this discussion. I don't understand why foreigners love to mind other people's business to begin with.
@Zhicheng
As far as science and technology goes, I said a meaningful and enduring tradition, which China has not.
"I don't understand why foreigners love to mind other people's business to begin with."
In reality, everyone's business effects everyone else. Therefore, those of us who live in the real world are concerned with the business of others.
"I am not brought up to believe that China and Chinese values will rule the world as supreme leader."
Um, yeah. Quite a few foriengers in china can read chinese newspapers and stumble on chinese textbooks every now and then. Also, the government financing of "conficious institutes" pretty much negates your statement.
Thank you Zhicheng for demonstrating how limited most Chinese people are in their thinking.
A pure idiot.
Proud of gunpowder (the usual 'we have 5 big inventions' BS)
"outsiders"
Fact is Chinese people are desperate to catch up and have lives like Europe & USA. Fact is that only a tiny tiny % can as their gov screws them over and they don't even know it. They just get turned into robots like zhicheng who says exactly the same things as a billion other people.
Mere drones.
And visitor, the angrier you get, the more you show your own deficiencies.
Taking a paragraph to write about having sex with other people's relatives = blatant and undeniable immaturity.
Okay, now for some realism.
It's really a pity that internet bulletin boards are such inadequate communication media, as I do not believe that any of those participating in the testier portions of this post would dare to communicated their "ideas" in a face-to-face exchange. When you're writing for an audience of one, I think you tend to express things that you normally would reserve only for yourself, except on the internet, everyone else gets to read it--intoxicating pig penises and all.
I am sure that everyone here is decent in public, and I would go so far to suggest that most if not all of you are likable, more-or-less educated people in public.
No, it's not entirely natural or appropriate for Chinese to celebrate Christmas, but it is likely to continue. And I believe that in a few decades, it will be quite natural to Chinese children.
Yes, Chinese culture and society has problems--some big, some small--but this is universal--every culture/society has problems and failures. However, the modern world is global such that we can learn from each other and take elements and ideas from one place and practice them in another. To take it to its most basic level (exclusive of more subtle issues), the exchange of cuisines and aesthetics certainly benefits everyone.
To close with a particularly idiotic but true platitude, increase da peace, yo.
@Steve,
I believe that the true idiot is the person who like to call other people "idiots". Please refrain from using those words. Show me that foreigners are better than the Chinese.
And last, I can be proud of anything I want to, such as gunpowder and including the "5 big inventions BS". Why do you have problem with this? I don't even mind if you are also proud of your "tiny penis". I simply don't care. And yes, most Chinese are desperate to improve lives as many other people do (even in richer West). So, if you want to help, buy Chinese goods or invest in China. If you don't want to help, yet keep making sarcastic remarks, it's better for you to talk less.
@M,
Regarding the "meaningful and enduring tradition" of science and technology, I find it hard to understand. The art of science and technology itself is universal, irrespective of any world cultures. However, I must give credits to the Westerners for developing the concept of "research and development", which I believe is what you meant by the "meaningful and enduring tradition".
As for Christmas or any other western/foreigner festivals, I never said that I want to ban it, but rather reduce/restrict its impact on Chinese mainstream culture. Predictions are hard to make. But, it's all up to the government to take care of this social/cultural "problem".
@Nanheyangrouchuan,
Confucius Institutes are just used to promote Chinese language/culture, all for the purpose of international goodwill. It's just like France's Alliance Francaise and Germany's Goethe-Institut and etcetera. It's not designed for anywho's superiority, you must have misunderstood. And, what of newspapers and school textbooks?
zhicheng, saying "tiny penis" simply proves your immaturity.
Also I never said foreigners are better than Chinese people. We might treat each other better, be more open to the outside world and although our history also contains murder and bad decisions, we are much much more advanced in every way. Whether that is "better" or not is subjective, but the rest is basic fact.
The fact that you feel pride at inventions that happened thousands of years ago simply proves that you have been brainwashed to feel proud about something that has nothing to do with you other than you have the same racial features as those who made the discovery. It gives you no personal advantage. Feeling pride at something you cannot affect and did not 'attain' (such as being Chinese) is illogical - but that of course is expected.
It's easy to just pick and choose traits to be proud of. I suppose you are not proud of all of the many bad things in Chinese society in the last century and also today.
It's not a competition. Fact is that Chinese people are educated in totality, and fed media exactly how the government wants.
It's funny that you call it the "art" of science and technology, because it is fairly revealing of how shallow is your understanding.
Oh, yes, it is far deeper than R&D. By "meaningful and enduring" I meant exactly that. A culture of peer review, a commitment to absolute discovery, the formulation of fundamental laws, a mathematical (and now computational) framework in which laws a can be expressed, the application of those laws towards practical problems and further discovery, an enduring body of knowledge which is constantly reviewed, tested, and modified according to new discoveries. And every fundamental field of science and technology and most of the laws and methods therein were developed in the west. Yes, China can and will contribute to the advancement of science and technology, but it is fundamentally a product of western culture. Just review any textbook (preferably published in a country with an independent media), and this is very clear.
If you have counter-examples, I would like to hear them.
To be perfectly honest, what I see as the biggest issue here is the Chinese self-concept as it is enforced by the Chinese government. Basically, Chinese are so pumped-full of ethnic nationalism that it dangerously affects their perception, and there is a great deal of unreality and chauvinism in it.
Religion has its problems.
Capitalism has its problems.
Western and Chinese culture both have their problems.
Mao had his problems.
It's hard to know jack about Jesus because the historical record isn't great.
Obviously everyone here is intelligent and worldly enough to basically agree on all these points, which begs the question, WHY ARE YOU WASTING YOUR TIME WITH THIS BULLSHIT??? Get over yourselves and find something better to do.
@epay
If you don't like it, then don't read it. A
Of course, your post begs the question: why are YOU wasting your time worrying about our time? Go home!
My god, are you children STILL at it?! :P
Hope that in 2007 China manages to open lots more McDonalds/KFCs/etc and get more people driving cars, just the Western 'dream' that you all seem to want, and breaks more fantastic coal-mining records that they and Mao (god bless his soul) can be truely proud of! Equally hope that the USA and it's denizens can 'educate' more of the world of their more advanced ways without ripping apart social fabrics and hundreds of thousands of hearts! :D
Happy New Year, folks!
I have a job, so f*ck you!!!
...just kidding. Happy New Year!
I don't think it's funny that science and technology is an art, why do you object without giving any explanation but only sarcasm? Chinese mathematics became quite advanced even before the introduction of Western-style mathematics (e.g. 算數書). It's true that political change (after the self-isolation of China during Ming/Qing), growth in scientific knowledge in China become restricted. And that now, many knowledge is based from the West. I think it's important to learn from the Western way to conduct science (such as peer review, modelling, error-proof check), but I stand by the argument that the development/discovery of a technology or scientific knowledge is in itself universal, so that any improvement of it (based on current Western technology) is not "fundamentally" a product of Western culture.
I think it's important for westerners to first understand that I am not a government member nor brainwashed by them. Please stop patronizing me. It is also important for westerners to stop thinking that other cultures who borrowed ideas from them are primitive. If there's any Chinese chauvinism, then I have to say it goes both ways to the foreigners as well. Even if we adopt the Western thinking/way of conducting science, it still doesn't mean that entire western culture is good and be adopted completely.
steve, you are contradicting yourself. You say you never claim that foreigners are better but at every point you used word such as "more advanced", which implies the same. And whether I chose to be proud of what my great great grandfather and beyond have achieved or not, is my choice. I don't think I have any more important discussion with you.
I love China and its culture but I love my country more :). I love western culture to its fullest and I was raised to believe America is the greatest society in human history and I think so. But I was also raised to respect other nations even if they are not like ours. Merry Christmas! Jesus loves you! ( I think I am a culture imperialist hehehe)
i think there's a miseducation somewhere.
I'm writing in reply to the first and second comments posted by Visitor and "Toobad" respectively.
Christmas is not a festival which does not commemorate good values. just as mothers', fathers' and childrens' days commemorategood values, so does christmas.
also, it is not supposed to be a largely secular consumer holiday.
but the fact is that many of those who celebrate christmas do not know what it means and don't even care to know, and as such, they abuse the true meaning of christmas ignorantly.
really, it is disheartening to see what many people do on christmas day-engaging in immoral exceses, orgies, negative profiteering e.t.c
but the most contradicting thing is that the ONE who is being celebrated, Jesus Christ is totally against these immoral acts.
as many know, he taught about very high moral standards.
a TRUE Christian should know the true maning of Christmas, and should be able to answer for every action He/takes, which is contradictory to the teachings of Jesus Christ.
This is really a good forum for exchanging ideas.
thanks.
Dear Visitor,
i'm replying your article posted on december 24th, 2006.
what i want to say is very important.
in your opinion on that day, Jesus Christ is a "long, dead lunatic".
what i'm about to say to you is more of an advice/admonition.
please, for the sake of your soul, take back that word. it's allowed with christ. even if you call him names and you are truly sorry for doing it, he will forgive you.
why do you think Christianioty is a "BLOOD-THIRSTY RELIGION"? do you know the tenets of Christianity? have you taken your time to ask any Christian what it entails?
you may say you're not intrested in asking, but why start the blunder, when you do not have the interest?
even if not for anyone, do not engage in dialogue that will defy your soul.
what I'm saying is real.
if Jesus was a bloodthirsty person, why does he advice us to bless those who curse us, rather than kill them or engage in "holy wars"
there's no charecter of Jesus Christ that has a blood-thirsty attribute.
Christianity is not a religion. it's functional reality.
God's in control.
thanks.
well, before i started posting comments here, i read the comment policy, and with the kind of words i've heard people use, i wonder if the whole policy was just written for formality sake-not with the sort of "vulgar war" between visitor, alec, e.t.c
I just hope this site is used properly because thrashing eachother with words is a waste.
Visitor,
why tell lies? where in the bibles you have read, did u ever hear of Jesus sucking a pig's ass? though u said u didn't want to talk about it anymore, just search your conscience.
you know, as all others who truly know the bible- that all your claims about Jesus are lies.
I'm not here to hurl insults, so rather than call you a liar, I'd say you've gotten so many things wrong, and misinformation is worse than total ignorance.
I strongly hope you get saved one day.
as for Christianity and the western world, the truth of the matter is that Christianity is not of Western origin. Jesus was not a westerner, and Britain, America, Germany and most western countries were not even mentioned in the bible.
many people all over the world have had personal experiences with Jesus Christ, and became Christians without anyone indoctrinating them.
Christianity thrives on the fact that Jesus is alive-till this present day.
the fact that many people jump into Christiaanity without sincerity does not mean that the one in whose name they gather-Jesus Christ is a confusionist. many people jump into christianity because thye know it's quite acceptable and the teachings of Jesus Christ totally favours humanity.
hence they become too relaxed and over indulged, and get too familiar with Jesus and tend to take his teachings for granted and as such, some deliberately go against the teachings of Christ, with the hope that "he would understand", afterall, he has always been good and forgiving.
all the confusion which arose from Christianity are totally as a result of personal human problems, and not from the teachings of Jesus Christ. you may read the bibles you have with you for refferences.
Christianity has nothing to do with "religion". it's REALITY.
Alec,
you need to go back to the basics of your life-right from your very beginning.
you're from a Christian home, so why...atheism?
i know you made your choice but it will be of ultimate good if you take your time to see reason with being involved with Jesus Christ.
Tks.