Shanghaiist: Still seedy, but has Tongren Lu turned savage?

kit

Wed, 13 Jun 2007 13:03:58 +0800

Scene : dawn on a high plateau, somewhere in Africa or New Mexico or Shaanxi. Large group of chimpanzees huddled against each other in the middle of a grassy clearing. sound track - subdued, sylvan, natural, birds waking, water trickling, contented grunting of sleepy chimpanzees action : low rumbling noise followed by giant dark red obelisk emerging rapidly from the center of the clearing. sound : also sprach zarathustra hitting hard. Chimpanzees rushing around frantically, whimpering in fear, hiding behind rocks and peeing in terror. action : obelisk reaches full height. Sun emerges from clouds. Strauss dies back, sounds of birds, crickets and water in stream re-emerge. chimpanzees slowly peek out from behind rocks at edge of clearing. Peaceful ... perhaps a little Debussy in soundtrack - girl with flaxen hair ? chimpanzees slowly come out from rocks, tentatively approach the obelisk. Nothing happens. Chimpanzees gather courage by patting each other on the ass. Group reinforcement ... bird flies over, waaaa ! mommy ! chimpanzees hide again. Ten minutes later, they come out again, braver than before. No reaction from obelisk. Chinpanzees now very brave, start pounding the ground with old bones, shitting in their hands and throwing it, gibbering chattering screaming. Shit all over the obelisk, shit all over themselves, shit everywhere. Chimpanzees are very happy, joyfully patting each others' asses, screaming encouragement to each other, pounding the ground with their old bones. Nothing can be heard over the uproar of chimpanzee screaching. Trev and Rotten Mutton in heaven now, yes sirree bob. this is how fascism takes over otherwise-sane societies fade (apologies to stanley kubrik)

nanheyangrouchuan

Sun, 10 Jun 2007 11:59:38 +0800

So kit has exhausted himself with swearing, kid remarks and bragging about his salary yet can't answer up to people like Jung Chang or Ping Fu? Instead, he puts on his Mao hat, looks in the mirror and tells himself "that Da Shan ain't got nothing on me" in 6 central chinese dialects then goes out to the streets of Guizhou and pees on a lightpost.

kit

Sun, 10 Jun 2007 09:03:04 +0800

In other words neither one of you have a fucking thing of value to say and all you can do is stand there making snide and ignorant comments based on your own high opinions of yourselves. High school kids, as I thought. Sorry children, you are a pair of snide, ignorant morons not worth the time of day. Bye-bye.

nanheyangrouchuan

Sun, 10 Jun 2007 07:59:27 +0800

Funny how kit waves his big, bad 40k RMB/month salary around but that's only about 5400 USD/month. Hardly big, and I doubt that salary is any more impressive in Europe. Basically, kit has to buy his pussy and if you have to buy it, you are sad. And he must be feeling even more inadequate as some of the chinese around him surpass his expat income. Suddenly, his is just an old, white raisin with a mediocre salary.

Trev

Sun, 10 Jun 2007 06:31:21 +0800

whoa. I really can't be bothered to read that. (I did read the first line and your 'gay' thing. Ridiculous). You had better find some other distraction and enjoy your ego and self-conviction there. Maybe a mirror and recite "I am right I am right I am right"? Adios.

kit

Sun, 10 Jun 2007 00:11:22 +0800

" ... go for some questions, Kit, I feel we have truly bonded." That sounds a little gay, I sincerely hope not. "do not forget it was you with your "hey young guys this old dog will 'crush' you ... " Excuse me ? Could you please point out where ? the entire thread is right here, I fail to see that anywhere. " ... I've still got some lead in my pencil ..." Once again, hunh ? It was you and polluted south river who got onto the sexual bandwagon. Sorry, but no one who has spent even six weeks here would make that mistake. Sex is the least of one's troubles in China. " ... I earn more money than you!" Two comments - one, your reading comprehension leaves something to be desired. That was a provoked example. If you would actually read the text you will not see anywhere that I said I earned a salary of 40,000 rmb/mo or even that I got a salary at all. For all I've ever said on the subject I could be in retirement, living off Social Security. Two, once again you are displaying your vast lack of knowledge of China. What are the first four questions you are asked when you meet someone new ? You jump to conclusions much too easily. I'm not interested in comparing salaries. I'm not Chinese. (By the way - everyone in your company knows to wu fen what everyone else earns. Here is China.) Mr Stinky South River tossed out his adolescent nonsense of "har har har you old fart, just wait until us hot young things come to town and take away your women." I gave an example of why that is nonsense. In Brentwood he is correct. In China it's ridiculous. All that you guys are doing with your comments is demonstrating just how little you understand about the difference. None of that matters and I wouldn't bother to remark upon it but your brainwashed nonsense about Mao zhuxin, that is just wrong and needs to be corrected. Trev, face facts. You do not know anything about Mao except a bunch of foreign propaganda. You have been brainwashed and refuse to actually think about the subject. Anecdote : today I had lunch with the assistant's family. They asked something about Boosh and all I could reply was that American leadership had declined in quality since John Kennedy. That's an understandable answer - China has had good emperors and bad ones. But, relevant to this discussion, unsolicited they offered that the quality of Chinese leadership has also declined since the days of Mao and Zhou. A statistically significant sample would overwhelm this thread but among the age group of people who lived during the time Mao was alive, you will find that this is the overwhelming feeling on the subject. With the exception of one or two people I've known who disliked chairman fur because their families were rich before the revolution, the vast vast vast majority of adult chinese people approve of mao zhuxin and feel he was quite superior to today's leaders. So ya know what, guy ? When the overwhelming majority of the people of this country feel that chairman mao was admirable, it's more than a little ignorant to be bleating the kinds of things you have. Outside of this argument, it's time to take off your blinders and look around. Get out of xiao qi city and learn something. Seriously. You'll become a better person by exercising your own brain instead of just parroting the Luce swill. Now, the question : you said "China is doing a million things at once and after all the debate (even if undertaken by the most intelligent men in the world), the only conclusion can be "some good, some bad"." Do you honestly believe this ? Do you believe one cannot say anything about the direction that, say, the US is going ? or Europe ? is China unique ? What "million directions" do you see China going ? some examples, please. Maybe I'm focusing too much on the bad stuff and missing the good. (Hard to miss the bad tho, it stinks so much when I open the faucet.) Truly. I'm interested.

Trev

Sat, 09 Jun 2007 18:25:30 +0800

More sarcasm - the sign of a mature man - and do not forget it was you with your "hey young guys this old dog will "crush" you and I've still got some lead in my pencil and I earn more money than you!". Feel free to go for some questions, Kit, I feel we have truly bonded.

kit

Sat, 09 Jun 2007 08:57:29 +0800

Ahh. I see I've made an error. This is the Internet : people are not what they appear to be. I thought I was dealing with adults but you are actually a couple of high-school boys. Look, kids - here is China. This is not the puritanical US. In most parts of China it is easier to collect a pretty and nice girl than it is to get a cold coke with ice. This is why the 'expat' women are so furious - they can't use pussy as a weapon in China. You are barking up a tree of your own devising and it's definitely the wrong tree. I intended to ask Trev a question or two but now that I know y'all are just a couple of semi-precocious adolescents, the fun has sort of gone out of it. Oh well. I hope you have a good time in China and when you go home next year as seniors, you should be able to make a lot of hay out of your China year. Don't forget to visit the wall ! Enjoy !

nanheyangrouchuan

Fri, 08 Jun 2007 23:30:44 +0800

". At the apexes place one attractive girl, one hot young english teacher with salary of 3500 rmb/month, and one washed-up old foreigner with ~ 40,000/mo salary. Hint : don't stand between the xiao jie and the washed-up useless old bai bai pang pang foreigner. You might get crushed." Hey Trev, kit has been in CHina so long he has forgotten about the rich old man - trophy wife - pool boy triangle. Yeah, the rich old man buys his place to the top of the triangle, but the pool boy is shagging the trophy and both are pilfering the house when the old raisin is out glad-handing.

Trev

Fri, 08 Jun 2007 20:30:25 +0800

Just my opinion, btw. No need for sarcasm.

kit

Fri, 08 Jun 2007 20:01:00 +0800

"Communism is ridiculous and Mao was an evil and idiotic man who could shout the loudest and was surrounded by weak morons. So be it." Well folks, there ya have it. The definitive, intellectually honest statement by the resident political scientist. Trev, thanks. I'll have to bow to your superior knowledge and accept defeat gracefully. Nicely reasoned argument, thanks so much for your thoughts.

Trev

Fri, 08 Jun 2007 19:43:23 +0800

"At the apexes place one attractive girl, one hot young english teacher with salary of 3500 rmb/month, and one washed-up old foreigner with ~ 40,000/mo salary. Hint : don't stand between the xiao jie and the washed-up useless old bai bai pang pang foreigner. You might get crushed." And there it is. The 'real' Kit coming through. The competitiveness that shows insecurity and the need to announce a salary. And 40k? Do you really want me to tell you what I earn? Do you REALLY? If salary is some sort of yard-stick to you, then I win. But of course I won't say the amount. I'm not you. People can, of course, have any opinion. But, word of warning, you will come across as the kind of 21 yo teacher (the person who you seem genuinely threatened that your women will sleep with) that you feel mightier than, if you are intent on saying "China is heading THIS way". China is doing a million things at once and after all the debate (even if undertaken by the most intelligent men in the world), the only conclusion can be "some good, some bad". Look at yourself factually: You are saying "things arent what they used to be when I was young", the 'swan song' of any ageing fellow. Communism is ridiculous and Mao was an evil and idiotic man who could shout the loudest and was surrounded by weak morons. So be it.

kit

Fri, 08 Jun 2007 19:13:42 +0800

oooh, xiao nan ren, you are such a ma-an ! I better abdicate to your far greater understanding and knowledge ! "living in the middle kingdom ..." Oh puh-leeease. Gag me with a spoon, wouldja ? Could you get a little more trite ? I had some dicey hun tun for lunch, might be better to toss it up. "everytime a new, young english teacher shows up you can look forward to losing your girlfriend/wife of the moment." heh heh. Admirable job of demonstrating your total ignorance of China. Create a triangle. At the apexes place one attractive girl, one hot young english teacher with salary of 3500 rmb/month, and one washed-up old foreigner with ~ 40,000/mo salary. Hint : don't stand between the xiao jie and the washed-up useless old bai bai pang pang foreigner. You might get crushed. This is not even taking into account that your version of a hot young english teacher seems to be a brainless prick while the washed-up "old foreign hand" might actually know something about China and behave accordingly. "You are obsolete." That part is unfortunately (to my way of thinking, anyhow) quite likely true. Seems that Mr Trev feels no one can look at a situation and comment on what direction a country is going but I dunno. Anyone watching shanghai over the past five years is likely to have an opinion. Anyone watching the US since Reagan is likely to have an opinion also. "My my, I've been missing out on these fun and games!" Hi Bob. C'mon in, the water is fine :) "Kit, mate, you're pissing into the wind." Yup. I do that occasionally. Not sure why, maybe an early exposure to Norse mythology ? "... I think you'll find a large number of expats here DO have perspective ... You do not have the monopoly on these things." Didn't mean to claim I did .. but hey, youse guys were being conspicuous by your absence ! It was getting a little lonely in here, ya know ? " .. what the fuck are you still doing here ?" Obligations. Looking around, it's obvious that what made China special is on its way out. Maybe one more fireworks season then ... " If, from your viewpoint, China has been ruined in the last five years because 'all you lot turned up ..." nah, that's not the cause. It was just the offhand comment that started this. The 'all you lot' I see blogging and blathering on about evil mao truly are nitwits but the real problem is shanghai thought. It's funny - dialectical materialism is a basis for modern chinese philosophy but I've never seen a place where people went from extreme to extreme so rapidly. If there's a haircut store on your street one day, the next day there will be 637 of them. Then they almost all go broke, only to get into the bakery business tomorrow. Today three, tomorrow 79. And there are two kinds of chinese businesses : the ones which can't be bothered to sell you anything and the ones who handcuff a salesman to you when you walk thru the door. Well, at least in my city they seem to have flopped to the other direction from the egalitarian, humanist road they were on before. That's what bothers me. When I see Bentleys driving around but Tai Hu water is undrinkable because of all the plating factories etc pouring unbelievable chemical filth directly into the water ... five years ago I could make excuses. But not with Bentleys and Mercedes convertibles common as tricycles in the streets. let's face something - all the "evil" that anyone could account to Mao will not have one-tenth the disastrous effects that the current uncontrolled 'capitalist road' projects are having. Love Canal, Minimata, all that is going to look like an elementary school play compared to what they're doing now - all in the rush to look "developed." Not be developed - just look developed. You are right. I walk outside and it's still entertaining as heck but time to think about the future. Funny thing - all the other "old foreigners" that I know are also thinking along the same lines. "What am I doing here ?" okay, not the ones who live in an alcoholic haze but all the rest :) "have you stopped to think that many people very probably thought the same when you and your peers turned up 15 years ago? I thought not." Well, in 1990 there were no foreigners who had been here for fifteen years :) China opened just to tourists in what, 1980 ? But of course your point is valid ... yet, from all the people I know who have been in China a long time, I can't think of any with the bad-mao-evil-rotten-commie fixation that a lot of the people here seem to have. Most people who came in the early nineties came for some other reason then were so entranced by the society that they stayed. Most of us tried to understand and fit in, not stand outside in our little 'expat' clique and bitch. From what you see now, in most cases that does not appear to be the case with the noobers. Not that there's anything you can do about it but it does seem depressing. Run all the way to China just to hear the same repressive ignorant fascist crap, oh goody. Puke :-) But now that you're here maybe you could spell me in the dunking stool ?

Bob Chippens

Fri, 08 Jun 2007 15:37:31 +0800

My my, I've been missing out on these fun and games! Kit, mate, you're pissing into the wind. There's a lot of expats here who obviously don't know the story, are living abroad for the first time and have little perspective other than what they know. But I think you'll find a large number of expats here DO have pespective, DO know that there is propaganda/selective history in all countries, DO realise things are usually never as simple as they appear, DO think Bush/Blair are utter bastards, and so on. You do not have the monopoly on these things. You sound tired, confused, ranting, frothing, high-strung... what the fuck are you still doing here? If, from your viewpoint, China has been ruined in the last five years because 'all you lot turned up', have you stopped to think that many people very probably thought the same when you and your peers turned up 15 years ago? I thought not.

nanheyangrouchuan

Fri, 08 Jun 2007 13:10:40 +0800

My kit, so easy to fly off of the handle. Can't take a challenge, must be due to so many years of undisputed "white god" lifestyle in the hinterlands. When you come to the east coast now, no one cares about your old raisin ass and they can hear better chinese from younger people. You must really despise Da Shan. "When WW II ended there was no "ROC"" There was certainly no PRC, the KMT was the closest thing to a legit chinese gov't at the time. Taiwan is a de facto independent country, period, end of story. And Jefferson Davis was more than a few years before Castro and the CCP. "Hey, have you read the newest one by Eisenhower's podatrist ? Did you know that in a series of schizophrenic episodes induced by commie propaganda, Ike impregnated 3,782 Ohio housewives while they were peacefully sleeping ?" Oh yeah, living in the middle kingdom denies you the pleasure of reading Jung Chang's book. Your experience (mind warping as it is) pales to hers and you know it. She'd give you a good lecturing about Mao should you dare to challenge her. She does do appearences on BBC FYI. The west is better off without people like you, stay in Lanzhou or Taiyuan for the rest of your life, everytime a new, young english teacher shows up you can look forward to losing your girlfriend/wife of the moment. The old foreign men/old foreign hands are a useless breed, left to wander dirty old hinterlands in search of gullible sleeping dictionaries to help them set up idiotic business ventures. You are obsolete.

kit

Fri, 08 Jun 2007 12:34:24 +0800

"You come off as another old hand to loves to rub younger foreigners' faces in "it ..." You're right. It really is inexcusable the way that people who have lived in China longer than six weeks refuse to rally round the flag when newcomers hop off the airplane with their "Mao was a Killer" banners. Just intolerable. "The Cairo Treaty declared Taiwan to be part of the Republic of China, ROC ..." What, you think international treaties are like contracts with football players, something to be renegotiated every year ? get serious. When WW II ended there was no "ROC". how would you feel about it if Jefferson Davis had snuck off in the middle of the night, killed most of the Cubans with the aid of the Soviet Union then declared Cuba to be the true United States for the next fifty years. Laughed your ass off at it, I'd imagine ? That's exactly the case here. Taiwan is part of China. Period, end of discussion. The rest of that nonsense is just so much American Rifleman crap. "Americans are cutting back on spending and getting into a more "holistic" lifestyle ..." Yeah, because their income is plummeting. The middle class is being decimated but that's another discussion entirely. "Well, the newest book, 'Mao, the Untold Story' ... the book written by Mao's dentist ..." Hey, have you read the newest one by Eisenhower's podatrist ? Did you know that in a series of schizophrenic episodes induced by commie propaganda, Ike impregnated 3,782 Ohio housewives while they were peacefully sleeping ? What are you guys, wacko ? Do you sit there in Bakersfield and fantasize about the evils Mao did to humanity while smoking your maui wowee ? Get over it. China people do not wander around reliving the evil days of mao zedong. In fact, to china people mao zedong was anything but evil. The *vast* majority of real chinese (tm) citizens admire and approve of mao, *especially* the older ones who lived then and have a frame of reference. It's the nutcase noobie foreigners who have the mao-was-evil fixation. Maybe that's to cover for their own guilt over vietnam and iraq and the phillipines and south america and the native american genocides and so on, I dunno. Americans sure do have enough to be guilty over, that's true. So blame it all on mao, why don't you ? Maybe he was inside the Shrub's hair dryer, impersonating God when Herr Boosh decided to invade Iraq. Dumb, really dumb. Isn't there anything else to do there in Oildale ? Maybe go out and light a mud pump on fire or something ? TP your neighbor's trailer ? Put some dead fish inside their pickup's hubcaps ? "I see you've really digested the bull that the CCP feeds" Gosh, you are probably right. Daniel Barenblatt, Harper Collins, the BBC, Kyodo News International, the International Scientific Commission are all figureheads for the International Communist Conspiracy that is threatening all god-fearing red-blooded Americans. Btb, Mr Nanhe - have you now, or have you ever been a member of the international communist party ? We've heard testimony here today that in the past you have been associated with some very shady characters. Ya know, I just have to say that you guys are nutcases with your Mao fixation and your "capitalist system" fixation and your window-dressing pseudo-democracy. Go read the truth about Vietnam. Go look into what that shithead Bush has done (WITH the approval of Congress) in Iraq. Read your history, starting with the Indian wars and continuing through the Spanish-American War thru America's support for Hitler up until the very day war was declared. Look into Enron and the other results of Reagan's voodoo economics. The foul, disgusting, murderous, hypocritical government of the United States of America has done plenty to keep your Christian panties in an uproar. People who live in grass houses shouldn't stow thrones.

nanheyangrouchuan

Thu, 07 Jun 2007 23:50:44 +0800

Kit: You come off as another old hand to loves to rub younger foreigners' faces in "it", but how do you explain all of the Chinese who fled Mao? Ever read the book written by Mao's dentist, who fled to HK to escape the possibility of revenge against Mao's accomlices? Pretty frightening stuff. You've been in China too long, another Da Shan who would come back to the US and give everyone a good lecturing whether they wanted it or not. You would not have an easy time functioning here so go ahead and keep running SOE steel mills. ". The treaty that ended the war declared that Taiwan was part of China. The US fully intended for the corrupt Jiang jie shi to win the Chinese civil war. After all, we gave him all the weapons one could ask for. The people who run the US have always been deathly afraid of any philosophy that includes protections for people without power." The Cairo Treaty declared Taiwan to be part of the Republic of China, ROC, not PRC. The Russians gave Mao all of the weapons he could ask for and transported his troops through Russia and Mongolia to escape then outflank the KMT armies. The Russians are also thought to have provided air cover. "It is the West which is learning to be Chinese in its disregard for anything but wealth and the ostentatious display of wealth with no skill or talent underlying it." Says alot about how long you've been over there, Americans are cutting back on spending and getting into a more "holistic" lifestyle. The West as a whole still exports our talent as expats and traveling executives. Who is managing all of the Dubai construction? Westerners. CHina's freeways, ports and subway system? Westerners. Reform of China's banks? Westerners. "? Back to Lincoln again, all the South wanted was to be free of the North's dictatorial demands as well." Actually, the South wanted to colonize Latin America. "another thing I have to wonder about when I hear this Mao-bashing ... how many of the critics have actually worked in China ?" Well, the newest book, "Mao, the Untold Story" was written by a former "Red Guard flower". Your China experience pales in comparison, now doesn't it kit? "Which the USA then used to create plague epidemics in North Korea." I see you've really digested the bull that the CCP feeds. I suppose the US is also responsible for NK's gulags, floods, droughts and farming incompetence. "China tended to be very free in the things that people actually do. The US was very free in the things that no one ever does and wouldn't matter even if you wanted to. I guess it depends on what is important to you." That opinion strictly contradicts your earlier statement of frustration with SOE workers who would state "everyone has their own ideas" when they completely screw up an order.

kit

Thu, 07 Jun 2007 23:45:07 +0800

alec, would you stop ! I was going off to have a life ... :P "I'll still disagree about Lincoln and Mao . . . " Well, they certainly are very different people, in very different places and times. But remember that Lincoln and Washington were not the archangels they are depicted as in the popular press, either. Have you read the Gore Vidal book on Lincoln ? Pretty good. "though I think Mao and Bush could be bosom buddies, as both were/are idealogues blinded to reality." I disagree ... I've never met a Chinese ideologue. I'm not sure it's possible in this culture. Just out of curiosity, where did you develop your ideas about Mao zhuxin ? I used to paw through used bookstores and found that many books of the academic community in the fifties and sixties were totally different than what you'd read now. People who had actually lived in China wrote things that were in another world from what outside observers wrote. Let's also remember that the churches despise China - something about their constitution and the freedom *from* religion as well as the freedom *of* religion :) "Mao did have a much broader canvas to sketch his atrocities, thus resulting in more destruction." Mmm. What was the population of the United States in 1863 ? What was the population of China in, say, 1950 ? Percentage-wise, whose atrocities were worse ? "Great Leap, backyard furnaces, cultural revolution, 50 million(?) Chinese dead almost directly from his policies" We have several issues here. Blaming Mao for all post-war catastrophes is kinda unfair, imo. There's the story that one chinese person is very talented, two people maybe can get along, but get three together and you have a fight. It suits the propaganda machine to blame all on mao zhuxin but that simply isn't the way these things work. Camel by committee, ya know ? Then there's another problem - many of the things Mao wanted to do were simply beyond the abilities of the uneducated peasants. One example is the "everyone dig the earth three inches deep" fiasco. In their enthusiasm, the people involved said "three inches ? we'll dig three feet !" and tossed all the topsoil away, replacing it with rocks. There were certainly plenty of fiascoes but if you've been in a chinese factory that wouldn't surprise you. Hell, if you've used a chinese bathtub faucet or ridden in a shanghai taxi it won't surprise you. What the four leaders from the old 100-rmb note tried to do was dump the feudal vicious-landlord society and replace it with a more fair, egalitarian one. Since what they were overturning was fascism, the West scorned them. Let's face facts - Hitler was the darling of the United States for twenty years. If he hadn't declared war on england we'd probably still love him. Ford, GM, Rockefeller, Rothschilds, they are all fascists at heart. Anything that spanks of egalitarianism and benefits for the stinking peons appalls them. So China was an anathema and had to go it alone. They tried to do something technical that their leadership simply wasn't capable of accomplishing. They wanted to create a modern *chinese* industrial society but they didn't have the skills. So they get blamed for the disasters which may or may not be fair but it really is not fair to blame it on their on socialist stance. About the cultural revolution, that was the correct thing to do. China could not be a nation because it never had been a nation. Due to confucian philosophy it was a group of families with loyalties and ties ONLY to their own family. Outside that, nothing. The best simile is those strings of beads in doorways - they look solid but walk into them and they hold together - but not as a solid. They hold together in strings with no lateral strength. Until you broke those families and old traditions up and reconnected them in another way you were never going to have a modern nation. If you don't have a modern nation then you cannot protect yourself : you end up with every two-bit pipsqueak country on earth trampling all over you, the way they had been doing to China for the past two hundred years. Perhaps the old way was better but it could not survive in a modern world. So take the cultural revolution off the list of mao's evils : it was a necessity. Of course, how some of these good ideas happened in practice .. well, it's easy to understand. Go out into the country. Get away from Shanghai a few hundred kilometers. Go up to a stand with cokes, ice, and plastic cups. Ask for a coke with ice. "We don't have that." Ask to buy a can of coke and a cup and some ice. Nope, can't do that. Or try to do some plumbing. The *only* tapered pipe fittings in China that fit correctly are the ones that were accidentally made too large. Sometimes you can sort thru the bins and find a couple that fit correctly, by accident. Have some networking "specialists" come in and watch them park six boxes onto your six static IP's, all connected fulltime directly to the internet running as administrator with no passwords. "That's how everybody does it !" And that's why 90% of the boxes in China are compromised and disseminating spam ... I really don't think it's fair to blame Mao for Chinese technical incompetence - although it probably suits the national ego a lot better right now. " and his utter indifference when informed what was going on . . . " This is why I cannot trust this kind of thing. Were you there ? Who said he was "utterly indifferent" and why ? How is your Chinese ? Mine is not good enough to eavesdrop on that sort of thing and I know that mistranslations are *very* possible. Even probable, given the ownership of the western press. Did zhou en lai say verbatim "I don't know what's wrong with mao tong zhi. I told him fifty people starved last week in front of tian an men and he just said "let them eat cake." I'd probably give some credence to a tape recording like that but ... otherwise, pound of salt. Now I gotta go have a life. Trev is right about that, at least. Nice talking to you.

Trev

Thu, 07 Jun 2007 22:53:35 +0800

"I've been in China solid for about the past five years." I didnt read the whole thing. over a decade ago !!! Big fvcking deal. I thought you were talking about the time of mao. You really do think you are an 'old china hand' eh. Let's put it this way - at age 57, you might want to be more open in your attitudes, and as such a super experience know it all chap, you still can;t see what a lowly younger knobhead like me finds it easy to: China is not going one way or another one way. People love to say "China is doing X" - "China is going back to X dynasty" ... "the mirgants will do this and that" It's all hyperbole. There's nothing wrong with expressing opinions of course but it's unbelievably immature to think that anyone can describe a country and the way that is is 'definitely' going. Someone can live somewhere 30 years but not know as much as someone who lived there 2 years - and your "my book is better than yours" is nothing but immature penis jousting.

kit

Thu, 07 Jun 2007 21:17:41 +0800

okay, this is it but - you certainly don't read very well, Trev. "You have been in China 5 years" 15, Trev. 15. Maybe the word fifteen in paragraph one was too long for you ? "Neither of us were there" You weren't. I've been a director of three different joint ventures with state-owned factories. I've lived in factories in dongbei, shandong and shaanxi, all of this over a decade ago. I remember f.e.c. and closed cities and before shanghai had the ring roads and tong zhi. "would suggest doing more with life than chatting about Chinese history." Good idea. I'm done here ... but you certainly do reply quickly. And you were the one who became incensed that anyone would think highly of Mao zhuxin. What, it's okay to chatter along as long as one says exactly the same old shit ? Our little clique of oh-so-wonderful expats reinforcing their own superiority ? I was kinda bored after dinner ... What's your excuse ? Pot -> kettle ?

Alec

Thu, 07 Jun 2007 21:03:12 +0800

That was quite interesting Kit, thank you. I'm less than half your age and have been in China only three years (all in SH), and while my opinions are a product of my environment I do realize that I have a very limited sample from which to judge China. I completely agree about the 'real' freedom vs. theoretical freedom. On a day-to-day basis life is much less constraining here - American law coddles the individual way too much. I'll still disagree about Lincoln and Mao . . . though I think Mao and Bush could be bosom buddies, as both were/are idealogues blinded to reality. Mao did have a much broader canvas to sketch his atrocities, thus resulting in more destruction. Great Leap, backyard furnaces, cultural revolution, 50 million(?) Chinese dead almost directly from his policies, and his utter indifference when informed what was going on . . . but anyway, I enjoyed your post.

Trev

Thu, 07 Jun 2007 20:52:09 +0800

You come acros as desperate to get others to think that you are right, but it's not going to happen. I have read books (I also read - wow) that say that government officials were not these happy go lucky bus-loving 'joe bloggs' that books you have read say they were. Neither of us were there, and it doesn't really matter what we have read. You seem to have the huge theories, and it seems to me that anyone who spouts theories about 'where China is going' (a subject on which you seem obsessed) is a typical run of the mill expat who thinks that they are experts of some kind. You have been in China 5 years and read some books. Even if one person did 'know lots' about China - who cares? It might make for self-inflated 'intellectual' dinner chat over red wine. As you are 57 I would suggest doing more with life than chatting about Chinese history.

kit

Thu, 07 Jun 2007 20:37:51 +0800

Warning : long Since we are all a product of our environment - this is where my thinking comes from. I'm 57, my parents and friends' dads jumped into Bataan, Corregidor, Italy. The Depression was only a few years earlier. My mom still takes the tinfoil off the turkey, washes it and folds it up neatly. I worked with a man who built the bridge on the river Kwai. Tony said they didn't whistle. I've been working in state-owned factories and joint ventures and recently private enterprises in China for fifteen years. I've been in China solid for about the past five years. I may return to the US when they strangle George Bush. My parents' generation didn't fight and die so that we could click our boot heels together when saluting Herr Bush. Paperss ? Ver iss your papersss ? Yeah. I'd probably jump the fascist bastard then and there. "I would recommend you read a book on Mao" I have. Several. At one time books were my weakness. Ya know, hatchet jobs are very popular these days. They write about John Kennedy, they write about Mao, they write about Martin Luther King, they write about Abraham Lincoln, even. And nobody is perfect ... but the historical significance of these people is much greater than the fact that Franklin Roosevelt most likely pooped in his pants on occasion. Seriously, if you want a very perceptive view of what was structurally wrong with Chinese society, why they hadn't gone anywhere for over a thousand years, what Mao was trying to do and why, go find the Coates book. It's probably the best single book I've read on modern China. another thing I have to wonder about when I hear this Mao-bashing ... how many of the critics have actually worked in China ? I don't mean on today's Huai Hai Lu (in fact, how many know what Huai Hai Lu is named after ? ten points if you get it right without cheating), I mean the Shaanxi of ten years ago. Places where you give someone a piece of steel and ask for it to be ground to 2" x 4" x 6" and back it comes, 3" x 1.5" x 9" and everybody thinks that's fine because "everyone has their own ideas." To actually achieve anything in China is a major accomplishment. When you look at the 1920's, the 30's, the war years, the Japanese invasions (remembering the whole time that 80% of the casualties the Japanese suffered were from Mao's communists, not Jiang's boys who were keeping their weapons all shiny and new for use against the communists after the war) ... well, if one has any experience at all in China, Mao's accomplishment - creating a modern nation out of chaos - takes on a superhuman aspect. I don't really care what his "personal physician" wrote thirty years after the fact - I've been there and tried and Mao is definitely someone to revere. In fact, you may notice posters of Mao all over China even today. Perhaps not in oh-so-conceited Shanghai but most other places you'll see them. The first time I visited his mausoleum people were openly crying as they left. I was tempted myself. If you know anything about history, about China, about the corrupt and brutal guo min dang, about what the communists actually did, not what Claire and Henry Luce said they did, then you'd be tempted to cry too. Of course Mao was not a saint. If he had been anything but a crazed egotist he never could have accomplished what he did - but he and Zhou created China, today's China instead of the Ci xi China of the past. If a panel of disinterested aliens were given the task of judging between Lincoln and Mao, they would have a difficult choice. Just because they are Chinese does not mean they can't be admirable. Tibet seems to be a favorite subject of Americans - too much Richard Gere ? But ya know ? Tibet is definitely one of the unappetizing aspects of Chinese actions. And I would be the last person to make the mistake of thinking that China will not always act in her own best interests. It would be nice if the naive, stupid American Congress could learn that lesson. But let's put this into perspective. WW II ended in 1945. The treaty that ended the war declared that Taiwan was part of China. The US fully intended for the corrupt Jiang jie shi to win the Chinese civil war. After all, we gave him all the weapons one could ask for. The people who run the US have always been deathly afraid of any philosophy that includes protections for people without power. Look at Passaic, New Jersey in the 1930's and McCarthy in the 50's. Well, the people of China supported the decent, honest communists (read the history written by people who were here, not the reactionary press of the US) and Jiang lost and ran away in the middle of the night, in the process stealing the treasury which belonged to the people of China. Jiang was now a short rowboat ride away, supported by the wealthy and powerful US. Currently it is very fashionable to talk about the democratic Taiwan just wanting to be free of China's evil demands but ya know what ? Back to Lincoln again, all the South wanted was to be free of the North's dictatorial demands as well. Beyond that, funny thing .. I happened to be in Taiwan when they held their first "democratic" election - in about 1998 ! Took fifty years to get around to having an election ? Wow, now THIS is a great democracy ! Up until then they had openly been claiming that they were the "real" government of China and fully intended to invade one day to reclaim "their" country. It was also true that anyone who spoke of making Taiwan a separate country was executed. Truly. Funny how the stories change ... On the other side you have India, also supported by the rabidly anti-communist US. The support for the Chinese had all come over the Hump through the war so Chinese concerns about dangers from that direction were not ridiculous. In fact, there is at least one group of Shanghainese-speaking people way out in the middle of Shaanxi even today because at that time the Chinese leadership was deathly afraid of attack from both directions and moved a bunch of manufacturing capabilities inland. I was small but I remember newspaper articles about clashes between China and India and later, China and Russia along the borders. WW II may have been over but it was not exactly a peaceful time. While one cannot condone taking over Tibet, one can certainly understand it no matter how Richard Gere feels. And Richard ? Perhaps you'd like to sign over your properties to the Nez Perce or Shoshone or Apache people from whom they were taken at gunpoint ? Then maybe you could speak up about Tibet with a slightly cleaner conscience ? While we are on the subject of Richard Gere and the lily-white-handed US, let's bring up a few other points ... are y'all aware that during the war Japan murdered about 600,000 Chinese people with germ warfare ? They dropped plague-infested fleas from airplanes, poisoned wells with cholera and dysentery, induced epidemics killing hundreds of thousands all over China. They also had laboratories which systematically kidnapped and killed thousands of civilians by injecting them with biological agents then vivisected the victims to observe the efficacy of their diseases. In 1945 the United States granted immunity to all the people involved in this biological warfare and mass murder/vivisection atrocity in return for all the documentation on the projects. The people responsible for the deaths of thousands dissected alive in laboratories all over China became bigshots in postwar Japan because the US wanted that information. Which the USA then used to create plague epidemics in North Korea. Let's remember our revulsion over the way Hussein and the Axis of Evil "gassed the Kurds." Terrible :-( Would you like to talk about Tibet some more ? Freedom ... funny subject, freedom. Like most Americans, I grew up with the same tired old crap being fed to me by the LA Times, Time Magazine, the Reader's Digest (hey, the jokes were funny.) So of course I thought the same way y'all seem to - the US is free, right ? While Commy Red China is repressed and everyone fears for their lives there. Then I actually came here (not out of interest, it was just a job.) Oops. As Mr Clinton was famous for saying, "it depends what is is." The US definitely has freedom. I mean, you can criticize the president quite openly without fear of reprisals. (Tell it to the Dixie Chicks.) And you are free to drive your car the way you are told, free to walk where you are told, free to voluntarily pay your taxes the way you are told, free to do just about anything you are told to do without fear. As a friend once said to me, "nazi germany wasn't so bad - as long as you were a Nazi." Evil China is very different. If you put up a poster of the governing people with big mustaches and a caption "Jiang zemin is a mean nasty person" then probably there will be some penalties to pay. But if you want to walk across the street, just do it. Green light, red light, who cares ? Want to walk thru a construction zone with trucks and cranes and all kinds of dangerous stuff going on ? Be my guest. Need a cup of really hot coffee at your fave mai dang lao ? Sure. Drinking age ? Can you lift the bottle ? China tended to be very free in the things that people actually do. The US was very free in the things that no one ever does and wouldn't matter even if you wanted to. I guess it depends on what is important to you. I know that when I got off the plane in Shanghai or Beijing I always felt like someone had taken a fifty-pound sandbag off my shoulders. Nowadays, I dunno ... the US has Homeland Security and China now has traffic guards and yellow tapes keeping people out of construction sites. Maybe we can find freedom in the Antarctic or something ... Egalitarian ... just ask anyone who lived in China a few years ago. If you call someone tong zhi and they smile, that's a good person to ask. Factory leaders and government officials rode around on the bus on weekends. (They snagged the company car any chance they could, of course, but it was certainly not unusual to see important people riding the buses.) If you had a lunch with some vice-mayor and bureau heads then the drivers would be right there at the same table, treated the same as everyone else. I believe there were more women in positions of power, altho that's just a feeling. If you filled one person's glass, you filled everyone's glass. If you gave one person a gift, you gave everyone a gift and they'd better be the same gift. Of course people are never going to be totally equal but ten, fifteen years ago people made a grand and glorious attempt to treat people equally. This was definitely the work of the communist party. Women made incredible strides in fifty years of communism. Again, one of the joys of being in China a few years ago was both how women were treated and how they behaved. There was no Gloria Steinem bra-burning bullshit, women just acted and were treated equally. (And I've never seen women doing the hard dirty jobs in the US that they do in China. Refreshing.) All this seems to be going away under the "I am important" frenzy that is sweeping China. Just a guess, but I'd say that another five years of this current crap and Qing dynasty China will be back in force with all of its attendant evils. It's fashionable to say that China is "getting Westernized" but in fact if you look at history, it is returning to the same society that couldn't get out of its own way for a thousand years. It is the West which is learning to be Chinese in its disregard for anything but wealth and the ostentatious display of wealth with no skill or talent underlying it. Have you seen any of these peasants with A6's try to back up ? There ya have it in a nutshell. China is just returning to its roots. Too bad those roots were the reason that China has not made a single significant advance since about 900 A.D. Who knows what this kind of thinking is going to do to the US ... probably destroy it. At least China is used to this miserable situation. Sorry for the length. I'll shut up now.

Alec

Thu, 07 Jun 2007 11:51:54 +0800

Kit, I would recommend you read a book on Mao. There was one put out by his former physician a few years ago that paints a pretty horrifying portrait of the man. I doubt there has been a single leader in human history without some blood on their hands . . . . but likening Mao to Lincoln is simply ghastly. Mao overthrew a feudal society to found an enlightment society? Isn't that the same rhetoric to justify Tibet? China was 'egalitarian, democratic, and free' before Jiang Zemin and the westerners arrived? This is absolutely fascinating. Please expound. Honestly, I've never heard this before and I'd like to know more.

Trev

Thu, 07 Jun 2007 05:36:59 +0800

kit

Wed, 06 Jun 2007 23:23:37 +0800

"You are comparing Mao to Lincoln." Damn right, bird-brain. And if you knew a single thing about China you'd appreciate what Mao zhuxin accomplished. But you can't because your head is as inflated with jingoist sewage as the rest of the Americans I see. I thought you had a brain when I read what you wrote about darling Ben but I see I was mistaken. I'll not make that error again. As for pig swill, Diogenes had it right.

Trev

Wed, 06 Jun 2007 21:13:07 +0800

You are comparing Mao to Lincoln. Also, the rest of your speak is self-inflated pigswill. Have fun believing whatever it is that you believe. Good day.

kit

Wed, 06 Jun 2007 20:55:06 +0800

"it seems that in fact you are annoyed that China itself is changeing to worship material goods?" China is not "changing" to worship material goods. China has worshipped the appearance of success since about the Tang dynasty. That's one of the major reasons they haven't really done anything since the Tang dynasty, either. There is actually a difference between appearance and reality. "Better than worshipping a man who told them to kill each other." Well, there ya go. Exactly why I said "assholes." Look, if you want to play holier-than-thou you can join the other 56,000 carpetbaggers. Otherwise, try to quit being so naive. Learn a little about chinese history. In fact, before you start throwing stones you'd better learn a little about american history. Here, spend a few moments : find a copy of Austin Coates, China, India, and the Ruins of Washington. He was a Brit but remarkably intelligent. You might change some of your ideas. "worshipping the chairman which caused their fellow Chinese destruction and death" e.g., Abraham Lincoln. Hey, don't you know anything ? Civil war, overthrowing a feudal culture for an Enlightenment society, that kind of thing ? You think that's going to happen without any displacements ? Pretty soon you'll be standing up for Marie Antoinette ? Coming to Shanghai should have cleared some of the brainwashing out of your head. Altho I'll have to admit that looking around here, open minds don't seem to be that common. Informed foreigners are even rarer :-( "worshipping brand names and monetary growth which in turn cause destruction and death for the poorest of the nation. (although not according to China Daily)" Yes, good old China Daily. It really is enough to make one sad. Five years ago China was pretty good. You could excuse many of the things they did because when you have 900 million poor to be concerned about, some bending of the rules seems okay. But nowadays ... if a country can afford a F1 race track and has people bleating about competing in the America's Cup, then they can damned well play by the rules of the "developed" world. China is becoming pretty ghastly, pretty quick. Frighteningly quick, in fact.

nanheyangrouchuan

Wed, 06 Jun 2007 07:51:49 +0800

let rise the new boxer rebellion and burn the rubbish and dead wood that has become both chinese society and its expat communities!

Trev

Wed, 06 Jun 2007 00:48:29 +0800

but you said "then you assholes showed up" - and it seems that in fact you are annoyed that China itself is changeing to worship material goods? Better than worshipping a man who told them to kill each other. Hmm ... worshipping the chairman which caused their fellow Chinese destruction and death worshipping brand names and monetary growth which in turn cause destruction and death for the poorest of the nation. (although not according to China Daily) So, nothing changes.

kit

Tue, 05 Jun 2007 23:41:14 +0800

"piss off and fine somewhere else where you need to be different to be "special". Hi Trev. Nice meeting you ... I wish I could fine somewhere. Then I wouldn't have to work. As far as "special" goes, it's not me that was special. I've worked in factories all over China for the past fifteen years. *China* was what was special. Egalitarian, democratic, free in a way that Americans could only dream of. (Well, most Americans don't want freedom. Look at what happens when they arrive in China - they freak.) Then Jiang ze min and Shanghai thought and now 56,000 carpetbaggers like "Ben" rush in to blog about how great they are that they worked cutting hair for a month. Oh my oh my. Meanwhile every peasant who sold his grandma's grave site has a new BMW with double-strength horn attachment and the entire population of China seems to have fallen in love with ostentatious consumer crap that falls apart at the slightest provocation but hey now ! it's ming pai !! Look at me ! I'm IMPORTANT !! ... it is very discouraging. China has turned to shit. I'd move back to the US if they'd just ditch that total asshole Bush and say they were sorry for being such fools for the past five years. Torture is okay ... gag. Which is worse - an ostentatious hollow China or a fascist America ? Sorry for venting. It's a difficult situation. Even Tahiti will be under water soon while Richard Halliburton's Bali is a 1500 rmb tourist destination for Shanghainese girls to stand in front of a palm tree making the V sign so their boyfriends can take a photo. What is one to do except bitch ? :-(

Trev

Mon, 28 May 2007 00:27:19 +0800

p iss off and fine somewhere else where you need to be different to be "special".

kit

Sun, 27 May 2007 22:02:15 +0800

"Maybe everyone should just chase the expats out of Shanghai?" I wish. Fifteen years ago Shanghai was pretty bad. Ten years ago it was getting better. Five years ago it was great. Then all you assholes showed up.

datou

Thu, 24 May 2007 12:52:15 +0800

I know both Peter and Martin as well. Their stories are legit. Peter was hammered and probably obnoxious. That does not warrant getting left to die in the alley behind Judy's. The side of his head was blown up like a balloon. It doesn't matter who deserved what, assault with a deadly weapon is supposed to be against the law. Apparently it isn't when it's against a foreigner. Fuck Judy and Pauli and their scumbag bouncers. They should be in jail. Martin's crime was moving a bicycle that some asshole leaned up against his car. For that he got jumped and beaten up also. Say what you want about bad-seed expats. Mass beatings don't shine well on the locals either. I wish they would bulldoze every bar on the strip and get rid of all the zombaloids.

Enders

Wed, 16 May 2007 16:14:29 +0800

Eric, what the hell are you talking about? Dicter, there are plenty crippled/mutilated kids being used around Shanghai. Peace.

ricki

Wed, 16 May 2007 14:16:30 +0800

I have seen this behavior happening in other parts of the French concession. I saw a foreigner being cornered by a group of 10+ beggars for cash on Changshu Lu last week. They weren't violent, but the foreigner was shit scared as they were delving their filthy hands down his pockets! It was all over in a matter of seconds.

Trev

Tue, 15 May 2007 20:06:34 +0800

Michael -- we don't doubt that this 'source' of yours could be 'genuine'. Maybe it happened. But it does NOT "show something about Chinese and foreigner relationships". It does not show that "China is changeing" ... it is just dull and silly (that blame falls on shanghaiist, not you of course)

Eric

Mon, 14 May 2007 23:29:06 +0800

You know, I'm absolutely THRILLED that I got mentioned on Shanghaiist! I feel like a celebrity now! Whether or not I deserved that or not.. that's up to the rest of you. To each his own. Party ON Garth! Party ON Wayne! the ColOUrwolf. (don't forget the "u") ;) Eric

Dicter Roloff

Mon, 14 May 2007 21:48:39 +0800

What's this about the article being being beneath Shanghaiist's journalistic standards? This is a site that caters to expats who want to know "where the hip places are to eat and drink" and "what's going on" in town. It's not like it's the Times or anything. Furthermore, the article is prefaced by "we've been hearing a lot of rumors", so what do you expect? Why aren't the police doing anything? Because, as a former policeman working for the US embassy (in another country) put it "cops all over the world don't want to do anything for you unless they have to." Guess what, in a case where you are definately a foreigner... they probably care less about you. Child beggar mutilation: tell me I've little experience, but I've never seen crippled children beggars in Shanghai. Crippled adults, yes. Children, no. I've read about it in places like India, but I've not seen it here.

Xhingyu

Mon, 14 May 2007 21:01:40 +0800

Stuff like this happens a lot, not just on Tongren. That street gets a large share of press because of how sleezy it is but I've heard of many incidents at popular clubs like Guangdii and Bar Rouge. A lot of these fights involve expats vs. Chinese but there are plenty of fights between Chinese exclusively. I'm not 100% sure but I think most of these fights are started by bouncers. Does anyone remember that rumour about some bouncer from Babyface stabbing a patron to death? It doesn't matter where or who you are, if you mix alcohol with healthy doses of ego, testerone, and short-tempered thugs, there's bound to be trouble.

Michael

Mon, 14 May 2007 11:41:13 +0800

This stuff does happen and recently I have been hearing more of it, and not only from 3rd party accounts online. However, I also agree that Shanghai IS one of the safest large cities in the world and I don't stop myself from having a dinner on Nanjing Lu just because stories are flying around. In terms of whether posting on Shanghaiexpat was authentic, I said it appeared to be, as it was signed by real name from a real email address with a mobile contact ( though I would not post this in a public forum ). In terms of whose fault it is, its always difficult to say. Yes there are some laowai that get to much to drink and get into situations like this. There are some appear to be easy targets and attract the attention of someone looking for easy money from an easy mark. In a city this large with a disparity between people with money and people with none so great, there are bound to be incidents. The reason I posted it is just to make sure readers use a little bit common sense and street smarts and don't get themselves into situations like that.

paul

Sun, 13 May 2007 21:06:19 +0800

so this is news - there are bars, beer, girls and...fights What next Dan - Shanghiist exclusive...Pope is Catholic

Gary Bowerman

Sun, 13 May 2007 08:41:43 +0800

I'm with Trev - this is a shamefully under-researched "article" that simply rehashes smatterings of hearsay without any recourse to editorial rigour. The upshot? Yet more dreary "expats vs locals" polemic. Shanghaiist, your role is to create a forum for debate and discussion through informed, well-crafted writing that reports on and challenges the zeitgeist. There may be an important story here, but you do not serve your readers well by approaching it in such an amateurish manner.

nanheyangrouchuan

Sat, 12 May 2007 23:23:58 +0800

Maybe everyone should just chase the expats out of Shanghai?

werico

Sat, 12 May 2007 11:29:17 +0800

that's the cost those scum expats gotta pay for being wild and arrogant... stop whining...call 110 right away if necessary

Pinko

Sat, 12 May 2007 10:02:19 +0800

There is an ATM on Yanan Lu, I think it's an ICBC branch, to the left of the Police station. I don't think there are any beggars over there. But I agree with all the above who stated what I feel is obvious. If you're on Tongren Lu, late at night, well - you should understand what you're in for. Personally, I find that whole scene disgusting - save Blue Frog and maybe M-zone (haven't been) and the Indian restaurant. The rest of it is a grim pile of drunken foreigners, aggressive whores, annoying beggars, and a foul smell of burning meat sticks. I'll spend my money and time elsewhere -- hope you take home a ladyboy, heh.

nanheyangrouchuan

Sat, 12 May 2007 05:47:45 +0800

"Nanhey who who... for once you are showing the better side of you are (?). we still don't know who you are... A guy in Kansas?" If that was the case I'd be throwing flaming bibles. As for violence on Tong ren road, it happened in the closing days of Maoming too, mostly between locals and foreigners and no doubt fueled by testosterone, nationalism and alcohol, with either a girl or "personal space" being the spark. the question that should be asked is "why aren't the police doing anything about individual or small groups of foreigners being ganged up on in superior numbers by locals?" The police stood by and did nothing while mobs showered the Japanese consulate in SH and embassy in BJ with rocks and bottles, too.

CJ

Sat, 12 May 2007 01:34:34 +0800

Nanhey who who... for once you are showing the better side of you are (?). we still don't know who you are... A guy in Kansas? I have a restaurant in Shanghai and sometimes beggers come by. I offer the extra bread we have and sadly... 8 times out of 10 they don't want it. They just want the money. Those two out of ten that take the bread... just are down on their luck and appreciate it (maybe). Back to the Tong Ren Lu problem... it is too crazy to get a handle on it. I am sure I will have more to say when I actually know what I am talking about based on the facts. CJ

Pirx

Sat, 12 May 2007 01:24:58 +0800

I am a regular at Tongren lu and I have never ever seen or experienced any violence at all. I am also not comfi with th ATM at Kerry Center, but that the ATM at Kerry Center should be the only one in the vicinity is a wrong statement. There is at least one more at the Portman, which is as safe as Abraham's lap. There are certain individual long-noses, whose behaviour would be dangerous to their health in Hongkong, Manila, Bangkok, Seoul, Taipei and certainly in their respective home-countries as well. We are guests in this country and should behave like guests.

nanheyangrouchuan

Sat, 12 May 2007 01:05:12 +0800

"Baro... you could not have said it any better. To give money to these "beggers" only encourages more child abuse for the unfortunate kids." I've made it a policy to give the kids food if I have it, or buy them some food. They are happier and the boss gets no cash.

CJ

Sat, 12 May 2007 00:12:34 +0800

Nanhey who who... For once, it is nice to read a comment from you that does not diss China. I have a life, try to enjoy yours. The Boxers be damned. CJ

CJ

Fri, 11 May 2007 23:59:12 +0800

Baro... you could not have said it any better. To give money to these "beggers" only encourages more child abuse for the unfortunate kids. CJ

CJ

Fri, 11 May 2007 23:45:25 +0800

This is strating to look like a good controversial thread. I like controversy. I do know Peter and Martin... It did happen but why are the bouncers at Judy's kicking their ass? Or did a bunch of ruffian's take over when they they got them out the door? As far as the Dr. Penguin story about the ATM assault. A bit more scary. Peter and Martin might have to own what happened to them. Dr. Penguin... a joker in his own right...is harder to comment on until he chimes in. At the end of the day (night) play it safe and just be aware of what is going around you. CJ

nanheyangrouchuan

Fri, 11 May 2007 23:28:40 +0800

"Shanghai is still a VERY safe place - just don't go to seedy bars late and night. And if you do, just keep your wits about you." That advice is pretty much applicable inside and outside. Any word if these guys were in the presence of local women? That seems to be rubbing local men the wrong way lately. beware the boxer rebellion part deux

J

Fri, 11 May 2007 23:22:23 +0800

"He doesn't remember what happened or how he got there" Why is this news? He doesn't remember. Ok so he was really drunk and got into a fight with some bouncers. I guess you are just trying to warn laowai not to be dicks?

baro

Fri, 11 May 2007 23:00:08 +0800

but guys it's not all about bars on Tongren. I frequent the City Diner there, at all hours, and every time now there is a mob of beggar women carrying children, and begging aggressively. It's just getting worse and worse. DO NOT give money to these people! They are the worst, exploiting innocent children like that. These kids are usually kidnapped and rented out, sometimes purposefully crippled, to make tourists feel extra bad and give cash. Whoever is funding this disgusting trade -- by giving money to them -- deserves a good beating. Be informed. Dont' be a sucker, and don't give your money to criminals as low and inhumane as this. If you care, donate your money or time in a responsible way.

vadaga

Fri, 11 May 2007 22:24:34 +0800

Tongren lu close to yanan lu is a hole. If you are going to pay for the drinks, you might as well go somewhere classy because drink prices are pretty standard across the city. Really I dont have a lot of pity for people who go there, and no love for the bars tolerating the bums right outside their doors. In my experience the cops could give a rat's ass about what happens either. Oh well, every time you go outyou could get hit by a car too, at least the beggars and Tongren lu are easy to avoid.

Trev

Fri, 11 May 2007 22:19:47 +0800

Oh please. This is really below Shanghaiist to write such things. So this article is about the fact that some people have gone out late at night to bar areas and entirely allegedly got into *some sort of fracas* in which maybe maybe maybe this and that happened. As if ANYONE who goes to fcking tong ren road doesn't go there BECAUSE OF THE PROSTITUTES !!! And then it's usually more BS like "china is changeing", "expats had better watch out" rubbish. Shanghai is still a VERY safe place - just don't go to seedy bars late and night. And if you do, just keep your wits about you. Come on Dan, monitor what gets onto Shanghaiist. And it's not any excuse that it's "news". Otherwise where does it stop ? What other stirring and reaction-inciting rubbish will be next? Back to the quote - maybe the local authorities did "NOTHING" because some guy came up to them and said "I got beat up by a Chinese guy". Any evidence? Any (credible) witnesses? Or just a load of allegation? dear oh dear oh dear ... dumb dumb dumb expats.

Milo

Fri, 11 May 2007 21:41:34 +0800

Sorry but every time I have seen it in person it's been a foreigner who starts shoving, or gets aggressive under the delusion that the little Chinese guy is going to fight them 1-on-1. This is China, no Marques of Queensbury here. My wife and I rarely go out to expat bars anymore because of all the expats who think they are hot shit in China and can grab any girls ass they want- and usually Chinese turn a blind eye to it and let them. So if the guys were really the subject of "random" violence they have my sympathy (we all know those crazy Chinese with their Happy Slapping and..oh wait...) but I've seen a LOT of fellow foreigners who left their manners back west and are just whining about someone getting beat down for behavior that would have gotten them shot back home.

Enders

Fri, 11 May 2007 18:34:19 +0800

Are you sure the guys getting the shit beat out of them (not the ATM guy) didn't have it coming? People who end up in that situation have *usually* done something provocative. Let's hear the full story, not just scaremongering, shall we? Anyone?