ShanghaiExpat.com reported to the Shanghai internet police?

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Thanks for the photo link davidinchiner. That [NAME DELETED] character looks familiar. Is he not that corpulent white man with blotchy skin who had his picture all over the shanghaiexpat site wearing nothing more than tidy-whitey underwear while dancing drunk on a bar top? This was maybe a year or two ago but the image was grotesque enough to remember for years. Someone should find out who posted that disgusting picture and have that person arrested. I, also would be embarrassed and angry if i were that guy.

Ha ha ! Well what we ACTUALLY know about this matter is:

1)A complaint has been filed against a website;

2)Its not actually stated by who (but almost certainly actually by a Chinese law firm) as the person mentioned as a potential source actually appears to be in Las Vegas and not China;

3) Looking like Richard Branson after a car crash may be unfortunate but is not actually a crime;

3)Libelous Statements of the sort that appear to have sparked the original compliant to the Network Security Police about that person (if it was him, which now seems to be in doubt) though have also now appeared on this thread calling him a [CONTENT DELETED], which is not exactly nice;

4)Looks like the people who got the site in trouble have arrived here instead;

5) The conspiracy theorists and their stories about this appear based on conjecture, rumors and no actual substance;

6) None of them posted their real names.

The thread about this same subject over at Shanghaiexpat today has also been removed by their moderators. I think that tells you something.

Conclusion - This entire thread, its contents and what is posted above is a load of bollocks written by people who don't know what is going on, have too much time on their hands and who just want to create trouble because they are bored. And it seems, a little fanatic about it. Something is going on, but unless anyone here has read the complaint we don't know what it said, who filed it or what it was about. Anything else is purely hypothetical.

To the poster who said the guy looks like Richard Branson, did you mean after a major car accident?

[URL DELETED]

Why not just post the complaint filed instead of pretending it's a news article? I hope they're better lawyers than they are journalists...

ShanghaiExpat.com reported to Chinese Network Security Police (by whom?)

Libel suit may follow (by whom?) - China based social websites increasingly under fire for publishing inappropriate content (by whom?)

February 5th - The social expatriate website Shanghaiexpat.com has had a legal case against it lodged with the network security division of the Public Security Bureau in Shanghai (by whom?)for libel and ‘disrupting social harmony’ it has been reported today (by whom?) . The site, which last year celebrated its fifth anniversary, has proved popular with local expatriates yet has consistently drawn criticism (from whom?) for its generally negative online forums and it’s sometime racist portrayal of Chinese nationals and the general living environment in China, it has been alleged (by whom?)

The complaint (by whom?) also alleges that libelous material has been ‘consistently’ posted on a regular basis over the past two years against a number of Shanghai based expatriate businesspeople, with no effective moderation put in place to prevent libelous material (as determined by whom?) from appearing. Apparently, a number of requests to the website owners (by whom?) to ban the offending members from submitting articles to the domain, and to provide details of the IP addresses and other subscriber information for the filing of individual complaints against the protagonists directly were ignored, hence the eventual action against the Shanghaiexpat.com domain itself (by whom?)

Additionally, the site has attracted members who have posted pornographic (link please:))and provocative material - some of it highly offensive (to whom?) - over the past few months, which has led to at least one previous temporary shut down (when?). Viewing the domains Open Chat forum this morning revealed the most popular thread, online for several months, purporting to be an expose of the naked and semi-exposed breasts of some of it’s (its) female members and various Chinese female celebrities. Offensive language and racist remarks appear to be tolerated for most of the sites forums, in particular in “The Pit” section on the domain, which is specifically only available for to the websites members. Advertisers supporting the website include the University of Southern California, The London / Columbia Business School, Visit Canada, and Berlitz, amongst a variety of local restaurants, relocation businesses and consultants. (Why would this be relevant in this type of news article?)

The issue over libel is a difficult one both on the internet (capital I, fucksticks) and in court in China. Users in China can effectively hide behind user names to post inappropriate material, and unlike the US, China has limited legislation in place at present to force website owners to reveal IP addresses of private individuals . Hence (comma, douchebag) the latest action against Shanghaiexpat is both for libel as well as for the potentially more serious allegation of “disrupting social harmony”. The case is an interesting one as if it progresses to prosecution by the Public Security Bureau, it may result in evidence being requested by the PSB as to the IP addresses and other personal information the website holds within it’s (its, no apostrophe, fucknozzle) site members list and database of users in order to track down other individual members for further investigation as concerns their status in China if the IP addresses are identified as being in the PRC. (who stated this? An expert in the field? Another person? Why does this last sentence run on? Are there English speakers at this law firm?)

There have been recent calls for the PSB to address matters relating to libel and inappropriate material being posted anonymously on websites (example?); this case may well trigger additional reactions or complaints concerning other sites that have not been following a degree of protocol or effective moderation over their content, as well as against the individuals who post such comments. US law does permit the prosecution of individuals posting under assumed names who commit libel, and it will be interesting to see if this new complaint triggers new Chinese regulations intent on curbing similar abuse.

All I gots to say: If you biotches get this site shutdown with your irrelevant feud, I will die.

How about we never speak of this again?

^ Good points Wombadan.

Let's wait for DezanShira to answer the email sent to them.

If they dont speak up and say who filed the claim and what is their source, I suspect their reputation will take yet another hit.

Ball is in their court.

So much conspiracy. Amazing. Anyway, re-reading the article it looks as if they're more after the individuals than the domains. Dez can't have filed the compliant either it just struck me you need a law firm for that and they're not a law firm. Mystery deepens. But if they have private IP's it might get interesting for some of the Trolls posting the Police can track down private computers and this may be more about that. Libel in the US is illegal and the Chinese Govt will want the same standards I am sure. Some people if they post lies about people might want to start getting worried.

Did you ever consider that he could have his company file it on his behalf or that he could have prepared/filed it sometime ago and then gone to Vegas? I have no idea about this story, but logically, the fact that he was reported to be in Vegas on Feb 5 proves nothing.

Another thing that would be really interesting is if Kenneth could see if the IP of the user wombadan right now is in Las Vegas.

This would explain a lot of things, including confirming that it is ridiculous to talk about yourself in the third person ;)

Kenneth, any chance?

As predicted in my first post, there we go, wombadan, apparently speaking for dezan shira, deflecting the initial questions that seriously compromise the credibility of China Briefing and Dezan Shira, which already have a terrible reputation in the market by the way.

Now, it would be really important for Dezan Shira, if they want to be seen as reliable and even honest, to come here and mention:

1-Who filed the claim

2-What is their source.

If this guy, the owner of China Briefing is in Las Vegas, is not relevant at all. He probably has his own employees pressing buttons for him. But nice try, dear wombadan, of assuming everyone here is a 17 year old retard that cant imagine that just because [NAME DELETED] is not here it could not possibly be him.

Let's all give Dezan Shira a chance, until they come here and make this all clear. I will send them an email and let's hope they have the moral correctness of clarifying all this and proving they have nothing to do with this claim (assuming this is not a rumor that they started themselves, which is what my gut feeling is telling me).

That thread I posted here http://www.webcpa.com/article.cfm?articleid=26679 has [NAME DELETED] in Las Vegas two days ago on February 5th so it can't have been him who filed that complaint unless like Branson he owns a airline and flew back specially just to do it. The Trolls here are wrong.

Dunno. He married Fei Fei off CCTV9 and has a lot of cash, a successful biz, is high media profile and looks like Richard Branson LOL!!! (Who also got a load of crap in his earlier days). I think he also sued a couple of businesses for copyright which probably made him some enemies, one of them another law firm here. Usual crap, jealousy and bitterness. But calling people peadophiles while slagging them off is a bit much. I guess you get successful and there is a price to pay with certain expats in China who don't like it. Plus its holidays and the Trolls come out to play. [NAME DELETED] is actually OK, he'll buy you a drink and give you the time of day. I dont think the trolls here will or have any money to be frank. Im a bit surprised about this comments here because I'd heard he'd gone to India to set up there and his website at [URL DELETED] suggests so, so I think the Shanghaiexpat thing might not have been his complaint anyway, but I'd think he knows about it. Maybe they gave someone some evidence I don't know.

P.S why does controversy follow this man everywhere on the web? Just wondering -- there are many other very successful china hands who don't seem to attract the same level of attention.

Experts see patterns.

@WombadanWoW

Allready a thinly veiled threat to this site now. Well done!

I'm not sure that sort of attitude is entirely helpful. Its a serious matter but you seem to want to trivialise it and make it "OK" to libel people on expat forums. Its interesting you feel you can do that in Shanghai. In the US, you would get sued. The internet law there supports libel of individuals. The China Briefing article mentions that it wasn't just about Shanghaiexpat, more about the legal situation. But you and Noyb seem just interested in acting like trolls and causing trouble for people - as well as this site. I have no idea about China but if you have libelled someone here then surely you see the risk the Network Police if asked may want to find out about you as well ? Or are you stupid ?

Libel is wrong whether or not the law is in place. Its morally wrong and ethically unsound, and in the case of those who wrote about [NAME DELETED] its also cowardly to do that and hide behind your usernames when you dont even know if it was him who complained or not, and when it doesnt really affect you at all. Unless it was you who got Shanghaiexpat into trouble and presumably thrown off their site. I just heard they cleaned that site up and banned a lot of people because of what happened. That makes sense, so you come here instead.

Wombadan: Your educated-abroad writing style and poor, disjointed logic are a hallmark sign of [NAME DELETED]'s Chinese smear team. You'll likely degenerate into incoherent babble if we keep pushing your buttons much longer.

"Its not mentioned who submitted the report to the Police. It doesn't state who it is."

Bingo. Sketchy, no? So what's China Briefing's source for this information? Could you provide a link or a media reference? I mean, you must have found that information somewhere... right?

"I note the people who love to diss him in person here..."

I don't think he's ever been discussed on Shanghaiist before, so "love to diss him" isn't quite right. Is it a misuse of the English phrase, or more of the same [NAME DELETED]-centered sycophantism?

"are hiding behind user names. "

Aren't you doing the same? Why don't you post your real name?

"then I'm not surprised if a complaint WAS issued. I would guess that also applies to this site into that category either so why post such material?"

Sounds like a threat... look out, Shanghaiist, "it has been reported" that the running dogs are coming for you next.

Oh, and by all accounts [NAME DELETED] is in Las Vegas right now or at least was 2 days ago so it probably may not have been him at all who filed that complaint: http://www.webcpa.com/article.cfm?articleid=26679

But as I said if the type of stuff what has been written here got written on ShanghaiExpat I would not be surprised if someone complained to the Network Security Police, wherther it was [NAME DELETED] or someone else.

Ha well the Chinese New Year trolls are out in force today. I think a few comments are in order:

1) China Briefing publishes legal / tax material, not restaurant reviews.

2) Its not mentioned who submitted the report to the Police. It doesn't state who it is.

3) Mentions of [NAME DELETED] here, if they appeared on the ShanghaiExpat site, would appear indeed to be libelous. Note the 'sexually abusive' comments. This bloke owns a large tax practice and writes books about China law. Comments about [CONTENT DELETED] and qualifications like that are downright evil.

4) I note the people who love to diss him in person here are hiding behind user names.

5) Before leaping to any conclusions I think you want to see exactly who is making comments about [NAME DELETED] and whether they are using this subject as an excuse to hide behind a cloak of invisibility and just create trouble - of exactly the sort that seems to have got ShanghaiExpat in the stink. I'd be very careful here about giving credibility to any comment about real businessmen here when the people concerned hide themselves. I can't imagine this thread will be up here long also. Trolls, huh. Theres some nasty people around Shanghai and this thread just demonstrated it.

6) As I said, if that stuff or about anyone else did get posted on SHExpat - and I suspect from what I read here it did - then I'm not surprised if a complaint WAS issued. I would guess that also applies to this site into that category either so why post such material?

Troublemakers and trolls.

^ I wonder if he obtains his visas in China under the pretext of being a university graduate and / or lawyer?

One sad but true fact which adds weight to the fact that [NAME DELETED] is a fraud:

I have a copy of his old resume which lists him as a graduate of the University of London.

I also have a letter from U of L claiming he never even attended school there much less graduated. They send a Cease & Desist letter to [NAME DELETED].

Is this the type of "lawyer" one trusts? Hahahaha!

@Kenneth - no offense meant -- just noting that Shanghaiist showed up on the scene at least ten years after some of the other shanghai sites were long up and running -- and in the scheme of things a managing editor who came within the last five or so years is not exactly an old hand yet ;)

Shanghaiist is however hands down by far the best shanghai site to date and Pengpeng tips his/her hat your way :)

Don't believe a thing you read in China Briefing without checking it with at least one reputable source. Examine the tone of the article. It starts with "it has been reported today" and "it has been alleged" -- by whom? Where? Eventually it drops the alleged part and just makes statements like "some of it highly offensive". It's really a poor article and shouldn't be reproduced or taken as fact, otherwise you're just aiding their propaganda.

And I really must have been in Shanghai too long if so few people remember the "Fidel Fiasco". Well, I'm happy to recall it...

First, Fidel was most definitely [NAME DELETED]. I was told this by both an employee of ShanghaiExpat and a good friend who is also his good friend (though I don't know why).

Fidel tended to vacillate between offensive but moderately amusing and (whenever he received a bit of criticism or even ribbing) aggressive and vitriolic. I stopped visiting ShanghaiExpat in early 2005 when his (and a few others') nonsense essentially polluted and diluted the forums to the point that it wasn't worth visiting.

The final straw was an incident between him and a few other users, notably one female poster. She quite artfully began taking the piss out of him on a regular basis, but she referred to him by his real name and even posted Photoshop-defaced portraits of him.

At this point he went pretty much insane and did the following:

1) Sicced a bunch of lawyers on ShanghaiExpat;

2) Sicced a bunch of lawyers on various users who had made fun of him and cowed them into reviewing all their old posts and deleting any mention of him (I remember one current Shanghaiist contributor and former ShEx poster, having received some of the lawyers' threats, was particularly unnerved and changed his tart tone quite quickly...);

3) Proclaimed in pathetic excess that ShEx was blessed to have had Dezan Shira's advertising dollars and his glorious contributions, but alas, no more;

4) Posted that he knew the identity of the female poster mentioned above and was planning to come to her home to physically harm her;

5) Started his own (seriously crappy) expat portal, which tanked as it was 50% poor content and 50% veiled advertisements for Dezan Shira.

In short, China Briefing is a terrible, biased source for information about ShanghaiExpat, and Dezan Shira quite possibly filed the lawsuit themselves. They're all about the shady old-school Chinese way of doing things. I wouldn't at all put it past them to file the lawsuit and then report on it as if they were a neutral third party.

And please, Shanghaiist, be a little bit more selective in the future...

@Pengpeng:

Shanghaiist is new to Shanghai? Oh?

Ha ha, I just realised how that sounded. I never had the ID at those sites because I didn't like them. They are not insignificant because I didn't log in there :)

Pengpeng, that's really interesting.

When I first came here, that forum was the main one and I read it for a bit. "Fidel" was the main poster, making much the same comments as Yangrouchuan does now but with the added dimension of the sexual conquests too.

Shopgirl - yeah, the smartshanghai forum is pretty bad. But like Kenneth says, it's not very significant. I have never had an ID at any of them.

I was chatting to a friend about the comments here on the book review post, he was asking me if I knew who Yangrou was. Without thinking I just blurted that it was a guy who used to post as Fidel on the older forums.

An interesting theory, if Yangrou is Fidel then he's gotten the sex out of his system or something.

Yangrou - will you confirm or deny?

Seems shady to me. As an uninvolved person who used to use Shanghaiexpat.com a long time ago (before the forum was overrun with drivel) I got the strong impression that Dezan Shira was actually behind the board going down hill. Someone using the handle “Fidel” was either from there or running some complex system to discredit them. In any event it would start with them posting a dummy question looking for an expert to help them get in and than someone showing up to toot their horn – to me it looked like a classic carnival con setup. Later the Fidel character – who again appeared to me to be from Dezan Shira (but who knows?) showed up and just started posting low brow posts that added little value and were trademark ‘trolling’.

While I realize Shanghaist is new to shanghai (in the grand scheme of things we all are) and probably not too tapped into the business scene but ask around and see what kind of reactions you get regarding Dezan Shira --- in my experience they have always been unequivocally negative but your mileage may vary.

Also, I may be confused on this but didn’t Dezan Shira also threaten to sue Lawrence over at Shanghai Guide a few years ago?

Now for the undisputable truth:

Dezan Shira is owned by the infamous fraud [NAME DELETED]. You'll remember [NAME DELETED] as the congenital liar who claims, among other things, to be an attorney when, in fact, he never even finished his A levels.

[NAME DELETED] has this habit of writing ala Chinabounder about [CONTENT DELETED]. He wrote enough of that -- and still does to this day -- that when the whole Chinabounder issue broke he almost crapped his pants with worry that he would be deported as Chinabounder. Fortunately, the Public Security Bureau didn't get the whole ring and [NAME DELETED] escaped.

[NAME DELETED] is not worried bacsue his past is starting to resurface on several expat websites such as sinocidal.com and, now, here. His m.o. is to threaten and bully people into complying with his baseless desires to protect his own rear.

What will happen within the next day or so is:

a) All those lovely posts about [CONTENT DELETED] will get faxed to the Public Security Ministry; and

b) A new domain name called [CONTENT DELETED] will appear to make public all his old posts.

Yes, I was wondering why we haven't heard of the case being reported elsewhere.

Interesting news, thanks for sharing.

Now, the question I'd like DezanShira to answer is:

1-Who filed the claim?

2-How do they know about it?

My guess:

They filed it themselves, or someone connected to them. (DezanShira owns the failed China Expat site, which never took off).

There is much more to this than meets the eye, knowing this guy that runs Dezan Shira.

This will get funny and my guess is it will backfire on DezanShira.

In the grand scheme of things, all the expat sites in town have a really TINY traffic even when put together, so I really don't see why the powers that be should be worried about anything.

it's funny how they only pick shanghaiexpat but not smartshanghai's forum whick is about 5,6 times worse.

It's most likely the PSB would ignore any complaint by an expat unless they were very well connected.

Lamby, if anyone was capable of bringing down the wrath of the PSB, it would be you.

"But would an expat run crying to the Chinese police because a customer shared their negative experience?"

You never know with some expats, some of them have nothing to lose and anything to gain because they can't go home. They are stuck in China and if they got a bad review for their crap business or being a crap person and can possibly gain some "China friendly" points by ratting out other expats, then that is exactly what they will do.

Think about list of expats you know (not friends, just acquaintances), there is at least one who just reeks of being not an Uncle Tom but a Sambo.

Yes, that's right, I remember that now. But would an expat run crying to the Chinese police because a customer shared their negative experience? Why not make a calm and reasoned rebuttal and promise to make things right? Something doesn't add up. This isn't about yogurt.

Nah, there are attacks against real-world businesses on Shanghai Expat pretty often (individuals, less so). I can think of a few off-hand, including one that got a *good* review here on Shanghaiist recently (think yogurt).

Or was it expat businessmen that brought the suit? This post from China Brief is rather confusing. Sometimes there are threads ripping restaurants or the owners when people have a bad experience there, but outside of that I haven't seen any direct attacks against real-world businesses or individuals . . . strange . . .

Hmmm . . . out of curiosity I checked out this 'breast' thread, and while there are some suggestive photos I couldn't find any real nudity. Considering how much blatant prostitution goes on in this city, even to the point where they are advertising in the print expat magazines, I would think there are other, more pressing issues related to 'social harmony' that could be addressed.

Sounds like a few locals got upset at how many expatriates actually see their country. But then again this country loves to look at a white cat and call it black with a straight face. Shanghaiist is very honest about China's problems as well . . . better hope no locals with chips on their shoulders come snooping around here.

I have seen some racist comments on shanghaiexpat, but in any open board you're bound to get a few - - check out the China Daily forums if you want to see racism, both towards Chinese and towards Westerners.