Shanghaiist Sunday Show: Sunrise Over Tiananmen Square
Don't Watch This: Confucius
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China's sick healthcare system breeding antibiotic-resistant "superbugs"
Video: Riding down Da Jing Lu
"Well, I don't know if China is any different, but our relationship with China is certainly different. We're in hock to the Chinese up to our eyeballs because of the war in Iraq, for one thing. They're holding hundreds of billions of dollars worth of our paper. We also are running hundred of billions of dollars worth of trade deficits with them, as we continue to import their junk with the lead paint on them and the poisoned pet food and export, you know, jobs to places where you can pay workers a dollar a month to turn out the stuff that we're buying from Wal-Mart. So I think our relationship with China has certainly changed. I think they're basically the same bunch of goons and thugs they've been for the last 50 years."
An online petition launched by the Legal Immigrant Association demanding for an official apology from CNN and for CNN to take immediately action against Cafferty for his racist remarks has garnered 23798 signatures at press time.
UPDATE: Foreign Ministry spokeswoman Jiang Yu on Jack Cafferty's China remarks and CNN's apology
Related links
Shanghai Daily: Online rally appeals for CNN apology
Shanghaiist: Oops of the Day 1: Stephen Hadley, US National Security Adviser
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People need to stop being so sensitive. Obvious that he was talking about the Chinese Government and not all Chinese people. Please learn to distinguish the 2 people!
So what's inaccurate about it? Does any dispute china is still ruled by thugs and goons? The government is a bully that gets it way on every single issue. There is one basic human inalienable right and that is freedom of speech. Until they offer this up, they are the same as 1949.
IZ1
So what you mean is Americans were goons and thugs before 1960s when black didn't have right to vote and lived in segregation?
French were thugs and bastard before 1945 and Swiss were too before 1971 when woman didn't have voting right?
The truth hurts. China is a thuggish, medieval and brutal land.
hmmm...I guess the problem is that Jack was attacking Chinese people by saying THEY ARE bunch of goons and thugs...I guess thats not the right way to voice your discontent about the Chinese govt...
It's not about Mr. Cafferty's usage of "They are" instead of "The Chinese government" that is the issue here. Nothing in the above speech shows any concern for the Chinese population or suggestion/criticism (positive or negative) for the Chinese governments. All he did was badger and insult China and I don't believe he had the right to do so.
The Chinese government didn't put a gun to the American population's head and force the American government and/or private businesses to "import [Chinese] junk" and "export ... jobs." His statement "We're in hock to the Chinese up to our eyeballs because of the war in Iraq" is also putting blame where it doesn't belong. Did the Chinese government tricked the American government into the war in Iraq? Did the Chinese government, once again, forced the American government to make purchases from China?
Finally, "goons and thugs" is an insult. Unless Mr. Cafferty, or anyone for that matter, can use the phrase "goons and thugs" as a positive criticism, it stays as an insult. Although I value the freedom of speech (such as the one I'm exercising right now), I don't believe insults fall under that umbrella.
or maybe Americans are still goons and thugs because they are still occupying Iraq and killing innocent Iraqies?
Or maybe French are still goons and thugs because they repress the Muslims in their country.
Or German are still goons and thugs because their society still discriminate against Turkish immigrant even some of them were born in Germany?
Or British are still goons and thugs because they don't let North Ireland gain their independence?
So peopel fight against those goons and thugs. So Iraqies hate Americans and help those "Terrorist orgnization".
So French Muslims fight against hostile government policy.
So German Trukish had riot in major German cities.
So IRA is still a headache for UK.
oops! so many goons and thugs!
North Ireland gaining their independence? They want that? That's news to me. As always... think before you write or say something, it spares you looking like a fool.
noisinessism:
you are here to illustrate how a goon or thug looks like. thank you!
That CNN commentator is a racist biased thug.
Ah the Chinese internet, home of the mindless non-controversy...
You can call the program
CNN
One CNN Center, Box 105366, Atlanta, GA 30303-5366
Phone: 404-827-1500
Fax: 404-827-1906
Wolf Blitzer
China is the MOST racist country I have ever been to - however, most of the world is still mired in racism, and has a history of slavery.
Ask any non-Han Chinese person living in China whether or not they have ever been singled out because they look differently.
The only reason racism is talked about at all in America is that the ideal over there is that "all people are created equal," not in China where different laws for Hans and shaoshu minzu minorities are written into their constitution. Yes, America had that in the original constitution as well, but I seem to remember America to fight its bloodiest war of all time to end slavery and start the process of improving the condition of an oppressed miniority.
i think he's right if he is talking about the government. but it's not a very insightful statement as most governments are just a bunch of goons and thugs. Recently it seems the US government (i hold one of their passports and was born there) is way more thugish, just ask an iraqi.
Why is this on Shanghaiist? seems like a story only of interest to nationalists, or as i like to call them, idiots. if you take a look at the actions of the Chinese or American governments of the last fifty years and come to the conclusion that they are not a bunch of thugs and goons (with laughably few and mostly inconsequential exceptions) then i've got a long list of invasions, occupations, police brutalities, famine inducing industrialization programs, anti-intellectual campaigns, etc. that you might want to take a look at.
Actually its an interesting story to present because open minded people are still interested to hear about such instances of idiocy, ignorance, and blatant insensitivity for our fellow man. Regardless if he be red, white, yellow or green. members of the press and such (may be stretching the limit a bit on this description for him) should be socially responsible enough to be clear when expressing such comments. But then again its like a commercial for the show since everyone has picked up on this commend and so there is no such thing as bad PR eh?
hearing about idiocy can be interesting, but there is no lack of it in the Chinese or American press, why belabor the point? The only reason i can think of is that the poster took the quote personally. (not sure about that, just speculation) But i think it is worth giving Jack Cafferty (who i suspect has thugish and goonish qualities himself) the benefit of the doubt as to weather he was talking about the government or the people. The reason: why would he say "...for the last 50 years." if he wasn't talking about the government. okay so he is also off by a few years but he is obviously referring to 1949, when the Communist Party took power. So, the post just seems like a poorly thought out statement of support for the Communist Party.
I think there is such a thing as bad PR but you don't have to convince me that CNN is biased (like all media outlets, duh.)
What Chinese people don't understand about Americans is that Americans don't see government, nationality, and race as the same thing. And many Americans forget that most Chinese do see government, nationality, and race as the same thing. You diss the CCP, you're insulting the Chinese people, even when you're not.
The guy might be racist, but to me he's one insignificant guy who made an insignificant comment. That petition seems more like an "I Do Have A Small Dick" list.
"All he did was badger and insult China and I don't believe he had the right to do so."
Well her certainly does have the right to do so. The first amendment is a beautiful thing. And yes, insults do fall under that umbrella.
There's a lot of frustration in American right now and it's getting focused at the moment on China.
Frustration with economy: Jobs lost overseas
Frustration with porduct choices in stores from china: Lead paint, poor quality, pet food
Frustration with our debt, which china continues to loan US money so it continues (not china's fault)
Note, none of the above is china's fault, but when any person gets frustrated they usually take it out on the wrong person... This is not to justify any comments that cause ill will.
But I will say this, what he said is NOT racist. He is talking about the chinese government. Truth can be heard in those words. Yes truth is said the same thing about US and many other places.
I just defend him on accusations of racism.
The Chinese government is bad or not, the citizens of it has the final say. If it was bad enough, the people of China will over throw it, don't worry about it. Look at the history of China, how many different governments have we taken down because they were bad? The point here is that when Jack Cafferty said I quote"they're basically the same bunch of goons and thugs they've been for the last 50 years." He insulted a nation's government. In the same sense, he insulted the people of the nation. If a Chinese news commentator makes the same kind of opinion about American or any other country, what will the citizen of these countries do? Will they let it go or will they demand apology as well?
The other things he said about China, if American people really don't like them, stop doing business with China. Don't let China loan you money. Don't buy Chinese crappy product. How about working hard in American company so that the company think the money they pay is worth the price. I have been working in this Big American corporation for 7 days now and you know what I found out? I'd fire most people working here for hanging out in the office doing nothing but meeting after meeting. What's there to talk? Do something. No wonder American companies want Chinese labors, they are simply hard working at a way way cheap cost. I don't promote it, I think it is disgusting to pay for the workers that little. It is wrong for the Chinese government not to ask for better pay for these workers from the American companies. But in American's economic classes, don't the professors teach the students that a company has mortal responsibilities to the community it established in? Then why isn't the American congress do something about these companies? Make a minimum salary law for the factories in the foreign countries?
Toys and food, why don't American companies do their separate inspection? For one thing that I know the Chinese businesses learn from free economy, they learned that they can get more profit by lower their production cost. Why should any company trust entirely in another company's product? This is stupid.
Debt, hmm... this one is simple. All I know is that it's a bad thing to lent money to other people because god knows when I'll get my money back. Unfortunately, the money Chinese government got from Chinese people is gone like this. We'll never gonna see a penny of it coming back to Chinese. Here is the reason, if the two countries are friend. There's no reason for the Chinese government to pressure the American government to give back the money. If the two countries are enemies, I see no reason for the Americans to return the money so that the Chinese can arm themselves using that money. So it's gone. What is Americans worried about? You know what these money really for? It the Chinese government to pay the American government to PR for them. That's all it is.
This one is for CatherineH. Oh you so special, freedom of speech. I also remember when you exercise this right, the exception is that you can't tell lies. You can't shout "Fire" in a crowded theater when there isn't really a fire. What Jack Cafferty said is not true thus it is not freedom of speech.
Dear Sega,
I understand the sensitivities of the issue. But lets be rational.
American's do not have much choice to buy non-chinese products. Most companies have chosen to outsource to cut costs. Some do try to buy "Made in USA"...and that's all well and good. But isn't quality of products a real issue and just as an issue to chinese citizens?
It's not wrong to ask for better, but i agree that it's wrong to lump these issues all together!! He was stupid to do that.
People around the world criticize US gov't and so don't US citizens. I think someone said it right, american's do not judge national pride and government together...as some chinese may.
I also think Jack Cafferty, when he says "same group from past 50 years" doesn't know Chinese history like I do...Chiang Kai Shek before Mao was just as bad as anyone...a ruthless "Goon and thug" is appropriate for him! He had thousands killed.
@richardlee
Sorry if you thought I offended you (though your answer to me was kind of rude) but if you read my comment again you will notice that you'd better think before you write and speak out, which I thought when I wrote it a criticism against Jack Cafferty. If people thought things through first without just speaking out in ingnorance and anger we wouldn't have all these "debates" that we have now.
So please explain to me how I offended you so that you would feel the need to call me a thug and a goon.
Anyways. Please correct me about the North Ireland issue and post a link where I can read more about it.
I am just an ordinary chinese person.
I tell you what my feeling is when i learnt about this and heard what the CNN guy said !
i am feeling very anger ! how could a commentor from such a popular channel watching by millions of people spelt out such insulting comments to us, chinese ! THIS IS WHAT I TAKE IT AS ...HE ATTACKS THE ENTIRE CHINESE SOCIETY ...i can tell you this will be the same feeling goes to majority of people who heard about this !!
So please stop making stupid defending for what he did, ...or whatever...this is just we take it as...okay...hell cares if you meant them just for the government !...your words, your tons...does not seems to me it is... !! let me say it again, the result is..we felt been insulted !....if there are any revenage action being arranged...i would give my 100+10% support !
noisinessism
if Jack Cafferty have thought things through first without just speaking out in ingnorance
we wouldn't have all these "debates" that we have now !!
if a chinese man spoken out of such insults in front of the public media to a country say..USA...i am pretty sure the result would be totally different !!
ppls there will be calm and think it through that the speaker does not meant what he said...NO WAY !!....as usually will be , pretty much the culture of the america ppls we are seeing years and years...they are probably demanding a apology from the national level !!
Hey, China is run by thugs and goons and is full of thugs and goons, end of story.
nanheyangrouchuan
you are little better than the chicken shit JACK Cafferly. At least you have the guts saying it and admit it that you are another ingnorant who hostile towards China !!!!
IZ1
"let's be rational" aftering reading your conversations with Sega, i think you are the most irrational one !!
Sega already explained very well from every aspects, but you don't seems to have the knowledge, experience, intelligence to come up with any convincing arguements to defend your gound !
Taking a snap of your post "
American's do not have much choice to buy non-chinese products. Most companies have chosen to outsource to cut costs. Some do try to buy "Made in USA"...and that's all well and good. But isn't quality of products a real issue and just as an issue to chinese citizens? "
It feels like those losers who are only knowing to blaming others instead of seeing where it went wrong themselve !!! And what it said about makes no sense at all !!
what no choice ? outsourcing ? quality of product ?!
if the US corporate are not so greedy always driving for maxmize profit ! there might be more jobs staying at US !!
if the US companies does better on the inspection of quality, there surely lesser problem quality products on the market !!
If you are not so stingy and paying more $$ for what you buy, am sure you have wider selection choices of goods !!
if you work harder, be more competitive, am sure there will be less jobs losing to abroad !!
i hope now it is clear to you that you should blame no others but yourself !!
DKWAN
{
many Americans forget that most Chinese do see government, nationality, and race as the same thing. You diss the CCP, you're insulting the Chinese people, even when you're not.
}
I don't think so, not in my case , and neither i think my surrounded friends, and most people i came across.
if you diss about the gov't ! i don't angry !
instead i would think of the reasons
At no point did Cafferty blame the US's problems on the Chinese govt. Clearly the US is to blame and responsible for its own economic mess.
While all of you spout forth about whether he is right or wrong consider this. If we don't allow differing views to be aired, we shut down the process of progress.
What are insults today may prove to be the "insights" of tomorrow and clearly many people agree that the Chinese Government is thugish and goonish.
No one has argued to the contrary, they only try to argue that an American Journalist has no right to make his opinion known. That is sad as without someone who is willing to risk insult we cannot possibly review things that we are clearly factual.
Insult or not, the fact that the Chinese government prohibits free expression, freedom of religion, and the free movement of its citizens is not questioned here or anywhere. The fact that it is rife with corruption is not challenged either.
In short, while you may not like the delivery, the facts are the culprit here and not the messenger. By the way, he has done the same to the US government on many occasions and in fact has called our government and our president much worse so this is not remotely close to rascist. Please think about that when airing your opinion, he is at a minimum even handed.
by the way, for all of you that think that Cafferty insults the Chinese people because he insulted their government i have two more points:
1) Chinese journalists do in fact insult the US government all the time. The US lives with it and just takes it for what it is,, an opinion. Just like Americans shouldn't be upset with the Chinese for having an economy that produces goods more cheaply, Chinese shouldnt be upset with America for having CNN.
2) This statement was made in the US by an American in English. Just as a US Citizen shouldnt try to "undo" Chinese customs and culture, nor should Chinese people expect to undo American culture. In the US this is acceptable behavior and in China so are many things that Americans find strange or insulting but when in China we deal with them. Examples include men walking before women, knocking into one another on the streets without comment, crowding and not waiting in line etc. Its not fair to apply a double standard to US journalists. China can "unplug" CNN if it chooses but if China decides to visit American broadcasts they have to take the bumps with teh smooth part.
it is funny to see people violate the very thing that they apprised the most, their freedom of speech. But before I tell you the reasons, there are things you, the rest of the world outside of Asian have have to know.
1. In Asia, most of countries including Indian people thinks that by insulting their government, the citizen is insulted as well. It is the fundamental difference between Asian countries and the rest of the world.
2. Chinese government is bad at human right issue but it's not entirely CCP's fault, it had to do with the corrupted of local officials. That is a common knowledge in China. The tie between local officials and businesses and sometimes local gangs. The central government hated it, the people hated it but we are yet to come up with a solution for it because the people that replaces these bad officials will in time turn to the dark side.
3. People outside China has to know that CCP doesn't control everything, China is just too big for them to do so. There are 1.3 billion people in China. To feed that many people everyday, to cloth them everyday, to provide medical care to that many people everyday, to have them not do harm to others people everyday, like GWB said "it's hard work." Just joking, I know you all hate Bush. That many issue at hand, I think the human right issue is fine to not be on the top of the worksheet. Think about it, if people don't have basic living needs satisfied, why would they want freedom of speech? If you are hungry everyday and if you have no cloth to cover your body, even if the government prevent you from speaking publicly, you will speak publicly. I Guarantee it. With 1.3 billion people? I think the CCP won't dare to not let them speak. It took American 200 some years to get where they are right now. Why won't the world give China 200 years and see what then? Every time the Chinese government try to free some speech, you push for the limit and the Chinese government fall back. Why can't people give it sometime to adjust. Really, it is not a bad country to live in if you don't publicly criticize the government, you can do it however you want just not in front of the media's eye. The Chinese government doesn't care about how you dislike the government as long as they don't think it will make them lose face in the international community.
4. Stop comparing China with other Western nations because China has way more issues on the table other than human right. On top of my head, education, poverty, retirement plan, economy, energy, medical care for people can't afford it, jobs, and boarder issues with surrounding countries. If you read my second point up there, you'll know there are a lot of bad local officials. If you really want a country wide election for the president of China, it's not going to go well. There will be bribery for sure and the election will be rigged. There will be oppositions between different people from different provinces that might result in violence, armed conflict and even civil war. No Chinese people will want to see that because we are tired of these. It is a risk that I know I am not willing to take to have democracy which is not even real freedom.
5. Restricted religion rules? I don't even know how many different religions are there in China, for crying out loud, Chinese people worship everything, tree, mountain, water, dead people, sneak, cat, you name it. Just don't mix it up with politics and you are good and you really shouldn't mix the two. Religion has always been a tool in Chinese different governments or I should say different dynasties but it was never a part of it.
6. Nobody cares about Chinese new media because everybody knows they are controlled by the government. Who actually cite them except Chinese people?
OK after you read all that, here is my reason:
As I said before, freedom of speech is protected when the speech is true. You can't just make up a statement without any evidence to support it. True, the Chinese government is very tight in controlling of the media over there, but can you deny it that the media here in United State is also controlled, let’s see, by BIG corporations’ maybe? If you don’t believe me, good, go do your homework, and you’ll find the truth. (Total stolen this line from Randi Rhodes. :P ) Like Randi Rhodes said once on her radio show, why do you think big corporations spend huge amount of AD money on product that you can’t even buy. On top of my head I can say is BP">http://www.bp.com/home.do?categoryId=1&contentId=2006973”>BP. Why do you think corporations do that? It is to control the media, if they don’t like something the media said, they can simply threaten to pull the AD off and the media will shut up. One thing about western countries especial United States is that the politicians can bluntly lie to their citizens. You can see that everyday on the TV. They grant the people the power to speak freely but they way they governs the country is no different than the CCP. How many major issues were decided by people in United States? Let’s not talk about the Bush administrations because we are not going to find any. Let’s talk about Nixon. It is true that he was impeached by the people of the United States. Hu JinTao, the current leader in Chinese government right now. If you can manage to find some dirt about him, I am sure there are people will take him out faster than the people taken out Nixon. American politicians often give promises that they can’t delivery but American people always buy into that. I can only say they have high optimisms. If these politicians do that in China, they’ll be chases across the streets like rats. Chinese people rather have no promises than fake ones. We actually honor the words we say most of the time. I know Mongolians are best at keeping their words, I admire them.
Anyway, gjhk said that the statement is spoken in English on American soil. It is true but it is broadcasted to the entire world. CNN always claim they are fair and balanced, but they sure don’t act that way. What about the decency of truth in broadcast business? It’s not like it is April fools day. What I said about the United States is true and this is me exercise my freedom of speech.
right, Cafferty & IZ1, the Chinese government/people pointed a gun to your head to force you to buy their stuff and borrow money from them. yup, that's exactly how it happened. forget about how the wonderful, all-saint US gov't f**ked up their own budget and their inability to hold on to their manufacture and production section of the country. forget the really sleazy concept of free market. (Adam Smith & Richardo -- bet you never heard of them.) the last time i checked (as in calling AT&T's customer number), the person on the other side of the phone has an indian accent. should we attack india as well? no, we shouldn't. because they are not CHINESE and you're only attack the country/the race and not the situation.
i wonder how much those two spend on "junk" everyday? i'm sorry, China feels that it could do whatever it could because if its market position. you've got a problem with that, tell YOUR gov't to stop being the side that needs help.
wanna talk about human rights? let's talk about your policy on Guantanamo and waterboarding.
re: sega8800
i wish these people would learn. but nope. it's really funny coz you would think that Americans should be rejoicing that China is not up to par with them.. but NOPE.
In response to some of the points raised so far:
"So what you mean is Americans were goons and thugs before 1960s when black didn't have right to vote and lived in segregation?
French were thugs and bastard before 1945 and Swiss were too before 1971 when woman didn't have voting right?"
Sure, some of them were and you have every right to express that opinion. If I don't agree with that opinion I wouldn't expect my government to call you up and demand that you apologise.
"His statement "We're in hock to the Chinese up to our eyeballs because of the war in Iraq" is also putting blame where it doesn't belong. Did the Chinese government tricked the American government into the war in Iraq?"
That's just silly, he's not said that China tricked the US into going to war with Iraq, he's criticising his own government for not standing up to China on some issues because it need's China's support for the war on terror. You see how it works? He's criticising his own government as well, something you're allowed to do in the US.
"All he did was badger and insult China and I don't believe he had the right to do so."
I'm sorry, but yes he does have the right. Chinese people also have the right to badger and insult the US and other countries, a right that is often exercised. The only difference is that Chinese people don't, unfortunately, have the right to criticise their own government too openly because, wonderful country and culture that China is, the people live under an oppressive totalitarian regime.
"That CNN commentator is a racist biased thug."
Maybe,maybe not, so what?
"Although I value the freedom of speech (such as the one I'm exercising right now), I don't believe insults fall under that umbrella."
Yes they do.
"The point here is that when Jack Cafferty said I quote"they're basically the same bunch of goons and thugs they've been for the last 50 years." He insulted a nation's government. In the same sense, he insulted the people of the nation."
No, clearly not. My wife is Chinese. I think the government of China are a corrupt and discredited bunch of fascists. Does that mean I have insulted my wife or any other Chinese person? Clearly not.
"If a Chinese news commentator makes the same kind of opinion about American or any other country, what will the citizen of these countries do? Will they let it go or will they demand apology as well?"
"i am feeling very anger ! how could a commentor from such a popular channel watching by millions of people spelt out such insulting comments to us, chinese ! THIS IS WHAT I TAKE IT AS ...HE ATTACKS THE ENTIRE CHINESE SOCIETY ...i can tell you this will be the same feeling goes to majority of people who heard about this !!"
"if a chinese man spoken out of such insults in front of the public media to a country say..USA...i am pretty sure the result would be totally different !!"
Sorry, but people frequently express the same kind of opinion about America and other countries and yes, the people of those countries do let it go. They don't ask their government to go around demanding that everyone who disagrees with them apologise. Every day there are hundreds of articles, TV programs, movies criticising and insulting America, it's government, it's culture etc. both from within and outside America. As China becomes more successful it will also be criticised more and more, that is the nature of success. If you're going to get this upset every time someone criticises you then you're going to be pretty miserable.
A quick correction as I know some are a little sensitive:
The only difference is that Chinese people don't, unfortunately, have the right to criticise their own government too openly because, wonderful country and culture that China is, the people live under an oppressive totalitarian regime.
'that' should be 'though'
No, clearly not. My wife is Chinese. I think the government of China are a corrupt and discredited bunch of fascists. Does that mean I have insulted my wife or any other Chinese person? Clearly not.
do that in front of public and let me know what happens.
French fries became freedom fries. i didn't make this up.
Chinese products are junks, some of them are, but most of them aren't. we are not upset about criticizing, we are upset because some of the comments are not true. and in Cafferty's comment about chinese government, i think they have made huge improvement in all the right issues from 50 years ago. if it was 50 years ago and you publicly speak again the ccp, you get killed, now you get to go to prison. i think that's a improvement. maybe 50 years from now, the chinese government release more power to the people. you never know.
"do that in front of public and let me know what happens."
Sorry, what does that mean? I live in Hong Kong where we still have freedom of speech so I do express my views in public and what happens is that some people agree and some disagree and they also express their views. What is your point exactly?
sega8800
I know that you are upset because things have been said that are untrue and I understand that. However, trying to argue that free speech doesn't apply if something is not true isn't, and can't be, the way that free speech works. In order to have this definition of free speech then you would need to have some body deciding what is and is not true.
If, as in China, this body is the government then there is no real free speech. If I say that CCP is corrupt and oppressive then I believe that to be true as would many people in China. Obviously the CCP would say that this is not true.
If there is free speech then it is inevitable that people will say things that other people believe to be untrue. The response of those people should be to say "That's not true!" and explain why not to demand that free speech should be taken away.
I also agree that things have improved in China in recent years (although being imprisoned rather than shot for disagreeing with the government is not very much of an improvement, but there have also been other improvements). The improvements have come because the CCP realise that Chinese people will not stand for it if they do not improve things. If they can persuade Chinese people to support the government against phantom insults from foreigners rather than continuing to put pressure on their government to continue the reforms then this will allow them to delay the slow process of improvement even further. This will be bad for the Chinese people as they deserve a much better government than the one they have.
Mister D,
What I meant is this. Take your wife to a public place in HongKong, say the exact words Cafferty said to your wife while you guys have the people's attention and let me know if your wife or the people around you will be happy about it. That's all.
I do agree with you that Chinese people do believe the corruption going on within the CCP, we hate it. However, I doubt democracy can change that this not to mention the possibility of a full scale civil war before we can get to vote. For me, I'd rather slowly influence the Chinese government from within rather than doing it in a rash. I think being shot and being imprisoned is a huge difference. When a person be shot, he can't do much, but when the person is jailed, he can still do something after he gets out. This person can probably make it so that the next people publicly criticize the government will stand a fair trial. and the next one after that is allowed to publicly criticize the government and so on. I don't think the people needs to put pressure on the government, because Chinese people have a long history of overthrow the government we don't like. It is enough stress for the CCP. The young generation like me are way more clear minded than the generation before us, I can't say the one after 80 is better but we'll get there. Like everybody else around the world, we like freedom, we love to have all the human rights, but we also love our land, this country called China. This government has been the better one since the 1900s, and yes we do deserve better but Taiwan, Tibet issues are still remain unsolved, our borders still have problems, there are still local conflict with neighboring countries. Any aggressive reform will make our stands on these issue weaker and helpless. We don't like that. We want to do things our way. Slow and steady.
sega8800,
I understand that change in China will come from the Chinese people and I understand the arguement that it will be gradual, particularly after the failure of things like the Tiananmen Square protests at the time when so many other countries managed to free themselves from their oppressive regimes. The worry is whether manipulating anger at foreign criticism is used to make thing go backwards rather than slowly forwards.
In terms of the Taiwan and Tibet issues then I see things a bit differently to you. I think that the Communist Party are the main barrier to resolving these issues, rather than these issues being a reason why you need the Communist Party.
Taiwanese people for example might agree to gradually coming back to be a part of China, perhaps as a semi-autonomous region at first etc. in the future but no Taiwanese person in their right mind would agree to do that whilst the undemocratic and totalitarian Communist Party is in power. If China had a sensible, democratically elected government it would be much easier to solve the Taiwan issue.
The same is true of Tibet. If you take away the oppressive nature of the Communist Party then you may well find that many Tibetan people would be happy to remain part of China, with the economic benefits that that brings, under a democratic central government with locally elected provincial leaders.
Whilst the Communist Party remains in power it will be virtually impossible to resolve the Taiwan and Tibet issues.
Chinese people need to be reminded that indeed the Chinese Communist Party is run by goons, thugs and murderers. No one has forgotten that the party is the largest mass murderer in human history. Thanks to Jack for saying the obvious.
Party is trying, with this latest flap, to convince the people of China that the Party is the people and the Party is the nation. Its a lie.
The Party is a bunch of goons, thugs and murderers. The people of China are wonderful. So when Jack insults the Party, he is actually supporting the people of China.
jackass insulted the entire chinese race ! if anyone still wants to denying about it ! fine with me, i will not wasting my time to argue.
Through visiting this place it reforced my understanding that if you are strong, you have the say and people will listen to whatever bullshit you talk about, if you are on the weak side, forget it, no matter how factual and reasonable the matter you are claiming, no one cares !
After all, this is one of the common human nature ! if you understand you will not be complaining.
The second thing i understand is, there has to be a cost for everything otherwise, people will just take it for granted !
it applies to everything, such as if someone hits you a punch, it is useless standing there asking for why, and let it go. you will surely gets hit again !
if you hit back, this is will be a cost to the puncher ! he will think about it next time when he hits you.
Again, another common human nature !
What that imples is, chinese has to give the insultants a cost !
quoted from timesonline
If Americans would pay more, then they would get their jobs back. If China gets more expensive, which it has, there is always India, Vietnam and other low wage places that Wal-mart goes to... how do you think they can offer the lowest price. In my view, unless Walmart goes, you are not getting your jobs back. And let us not forget the fact that Americans were the ones that nearly wiped out the Indigenous Indians, had slave labour, treated Chinese immigrants who built the railroads poorly and sold Opium. Maybe that was the past...how about the recent sub-prime mortgages, Enron, junk bonds, internet bubble...stuff sold to other countries' pension funds? Does it mean that the US are all crooks? Look around you, if you don't want Chinese goods and components, throw it out. Since we make junk, I would love to see you dump your car, TV and other stuff that you have. Then go buy one that has nothing to do with China. I would be interested to see how you survive...good luck.
Ivan Ting, Hong Kong,
if you have the media you have the world !
that's why most of the westerners are brain washed by their media ! the very few that can stay a clear mind and staying a unbaisd mind earns my respect ! Apparently, none showing here !
watched the TV news today and saw how the chinese police the condemed the anti-franch protesters outside of the supermarket. The chinese government did their job and responsbility of being a country government earns another of my respect.
In comparsion, looked at the french, saw what happened to the Olympic rally, the local riots pushed the girls on the weelchair who were holding the torch !!!
Where the heck was the police ? what did the fucken french government did ?! Howcome the media is not focusing on this ? Is this a responsbility of the french government to ensure the rally goes safety ?!
Fucking Sick ! DOUBLE STANDARD !!
I have heard there is an even bigger boycrot action being arranged on the 1st of May ! Too bad is no Carrfour around my area !
Mister
Imagine your wife always calling you piece of shit ! Will there be a different effect if she calling you such behind close door and in front of your friends and colleagues.
Mister
from your point of view towards china being publicly insulted case, I think your answer would be no different and liked to being called piece of shit :P
mister
I am glad you finally understood! piece of shit
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