(L) China: Nationalist netizens on MSN Messenger "heart" China

*grin* Chinese-American and proud.

... there's my (l) everyone! in the screen cap :)

Nationalism is "uncool" in Europe because of those minor historical events such as imperialism, colonialism, racial theory, eugenics, pogroms ..World War 2 ...the holocaust ... etc

and suprisingly enough ..even with all that lurking around you still get outraged reactions for writing or saying stuff that rejects countries and race.

^.........^

Of course - if any of this passes as sane then first up, the American government should apologize to France on behalf of all Americans for Bill O'Reilly.

Come off it Les, the (L) China movement has about as much validity and thought behind it as a "Support the Troops" yellow ribbon bumper sticker does in the States.

T - if you want to have a conversation you should address my points rather than just reiterating yours. My socialist family always flew the Stars and Stripes on holidays because my Mom said, "I'm not gonna let those bastard Republicans steal my flag." Maybe I have a different take on this stuff than you do.

Les - do you honestly think that the millions of Chinese who put a little (L) China modifier on their MSN screen name went through a period of self-reflection and thought? If you do, I have a bridge in Brooklyn that can be had for cheap . . .

If you can't see that it is a combination of internet meme (which is probably the more likely source of promulgation) and victimization, then I'd have to really question your time in China and how well you actually know anyone here.

Patriotism and loving one's country is not best expressed through a flag pin or a little heart with the name of your country on your MSN screen name. It's as silly as sewing a Maple Leaf to your backpack or putting a bumper sticker on your car. Or even siller, I'd say.

This is my advice to anyone - Chinese, American, Swedish, Land of Mutton - if you really love your country, then why not try to make it a better place? Stop littering. Be nice to your neighbors. Strive to set a better example for people. Be a better example of your countrymen abroad, and at home. Be an ambassador. Vote.

thanks for this news. Now i, as well, have put (L) China on my MSN. feel good. Yes, I want others to know I love China, especially at this moment.

Just met a very good friend from NY arrived Sha today. he can read and speak Chinese, but has lived in NY for 30 years already. he does not read newspaper, websites, only watch TV to get news on daily life. Interestingly, or, I should say, no surprising at all, before I show him the SINA website, he did NOT know the roits happened in Lhasa, he thought it was a peaceful protest. also, for Paris, all he knew was Free-Tibet peaceful protest against Olympic Torch. when I showed him the picture of Jinjin under violent attack w/o police protection, he became very quite, then started to talk about economics...

I am so shocked, because he is a really nice person, so interested in Chinese culture and history... i cannot say he is ignorant to China, because it isnot true, his China's history knowledge is even better than me. I cannot say he dislikes Chinese, because I know for sure he loves China. AND i cannot say he has been brainwashed by west media, because this expression is not polite he will definitely feel hurt.
Finally, after his long period of quietness, I told him: 'let us not talk about politics, for the sake of friendship. Because it is like chicken talks to duck -- no one can understand each other. '

Frankly, as you westerners know, we mainland chinese do not really enjoy the right of parade regarding any political issue. Sometimes when the "illegal" ones go bad, there would be crackdown. The only legal parade as I rememeber, was when US bombed our embassy in Yugoslavia.

So (L)China is actually among the only few ways that we can use to express ourselves. Yes, you can look down upon the it coz your constitution makes more sense. but,BUT, at this point, it is not a matter of CPC, it is a matter that our nation is been humiliated and insulted/ framed and blackmailed ... as Chinese, if we dont support China by all means legal, who else will? If we ignore this and try not to be a nationalist, who else will care?

If the congress re-write our constitution and make every justified prada legal, many western countries' Embassies and Consulates would get fucked-up as brutle as China gets in Frech, UK and etc. So pls do not take it so easy that Chinese people are as weak as play tricks on MSN... we have been as a tolerant race for many many many years.

Haha! Alec, I love you! Soooo on the money with that one!

(L) CCP (L)中共 (F**K）Tibet 入境随俗！

没有共产党就没有新中国
做一个毛主席的好学生！

Honestly, the sheer willingness of so many Chinese to blindly support their unelected, unaccountable, unsupervised, and by the words of China's Constitution "DICTATORSHIP 独裁" is really beyond me.

Before I came to China, I had a lot more faith in the power of free will in the face of overwhelming ideological indoctrination of utter lies.

Then again, we are talking about an organization that made 70 million Chinese people willing to starve themselves to death, and have lots of babies at the same time.

@Alec
Yes you do jealous, because you dont wanna see the nation you have invaded by all means from 1900s to be stronger now and soon be better than your own.

You are perfectly right, as China does have many many many many many problems. but i do doubt if you can undertand a very common thing that every nation has its problems. We dont deny anything because it has problems but We see things in its trend. and you know, or it is obvious that China is going to be one of the Powers. When we talking about a nation's power in the international community. We dont count it in a way of per-capital, we see it in a whole. That's the part you are an total ingorant. A polluted China with bad universities can still be the power coz we have larger comsuption, we produce things you have to suck on to keep living, we have 1200billion USD to ordaer USA to suck balls, we have nuclear weapons to fuck whoever wants to split the nation. Yes, you do jealous. Fresh air won't make you feel better when your western gov-s taking oders from the USA like his bitches.

and thx for your pointing-fingers on China's problems. but guess what, since the Chinese can get you motherfucker invaders back home in the 20 centuries, there is nothing we can not acchieve for now and the future. You just wait and see.

Alec is obviously all for freedom of speech Sega, he was simply commenting on the absurd amount of Chinese people who are making the laughable comments that western people and nations are jealous of China's growth. The only reason why people are labeling your so called "freedom of speech" online as stupid is because its not freedom of speech at all. You are simply reiterating the hateful anti-west patriotic brainwashed garbage your gov't here has been hammering throughout the media. You dont know what freedom of speech is, and thats ok as you grew up in china, but dont throw around the phrase like you do know what it means.

Winterfalling, read Callipers post. It sums you up nicely.

Oh, also, Sega - China might be the most un-communist country in the world. You can't call a chicken and duck and make it magically a duck. America is more communist, ironically, what with strong labor unions, medicare, medicaid, welfare, etc. China is America before the New Deal. Don't delude yourself.

There is something funny, chinese people want to boycott french products, ok so they can also boycott Olympic Games, because they were reinvented by a French man Pierre de Coubertin in 1894 and he was the first president of the IOC until 1925.
The five rings were invented in 1913 by Pierre de Coubertin too.
I am not for boycotting, just to say Olympic Games are games and not political. It's not because one guy did one terrible thing in France that all the french people think like him.
Olympic Games represent the peace.

Alec: your 10:26 AM post is right on. Heck, a Chinese commenter in this thread basically said "Our government disallows other forms of assembly, and might crack down even if we assemble legally, so this is our only way to support them."

WTF???

If I speak for China as i did, you call me nationalist. Then who should I speak for? WE GOT FUCKED, pls try to feel the way China is undergoing... WE GOT FUCKED. it may hard for you to understand, since your western nations have been invading and fucking others, like afganistan, Yugoslavia, Iraq and etc for long. Nobody fucks you.

That's why you always are so concerned about human rights, complain about Chinese gov and nationalists. But as a Chinese now, I would say, fuck the human rights, fuck you all, we are not even repected as a nation, who are we to have human rights? Do you want protect your fucking humanrights when you see a handicapped Chinese girl got attacked by western DALAI LAMA suppoters and human right orgnization who wants to "protect Chinese human rights"?

McLustin: Oh yeah.

Fair enough, Richard. But why, then, have the hundreds of comments I've read on Economist article, China Daily articles, NYT articles and Shanghaiist articles all said the same thing with only the slightest of variation?

Do people who speak English all have the same exact same opinion, but those restricted only to Chinese have widely different views? Really? Can you understand why I find this unlikely?

(L) winterfalling quasi child porn photo

Alec said it all you guys. (L)China is not offensive to Westerners. It is just amusing. It brings up the old "If your friends all jumped off a building, would you too?" question.

It also DOES divert from the real issue. So you hate the "biased" Western media. So? This does nothing for Tibet, where, Western media or no, people were obviously unhappy with Chinese rule enough to riot, and where monks were obviously upset enough to protest PEACEFULLY days before, until they were manhandled by the government.

Oh, but go ahead, add a little (L)China to your screenname and be a conformist. THAT will solve all the problems. Well, I have a better idea. If Westerners don't understand China or Tibet or any of that, then why don't you lift a finger to solve the Tibet issue in a constructive way yourselves, or at least express your willingness to do something about it.

I will tell you the reason why Pro-Tibet protesters have been more successful at getting their message across. Because to the rest of the world, they actually look like they care about Tibet. They address the problem, whether you agree with them or not.

You look like you only care about Han Chinese. Oh, Westerners are insulting Chinese dignity, you say? Message: ME ME ME ME ME ME.... It's no wonder the rest of the world responds with: Look at the nationalist Chinese all marching to the tune of the same drummer. Care about someone but yourself for once.

So go ahead. Add a (L)China, and do nothing about the problem. I will just sit back and laugh.

Les Izmore, you dirty race traitor. Wait till I'm back in America and I find out where your parents live.

Seriously, though, you sound like someone who had they been studying in China during the cultural revolution would have been the first to throw on the red guard outfit and re-educate somebody.

I never said America was communist; only that more of the trappings of communist nations (power in the worker's hands, social safety nets, legal protection for workers) were more evident in America than in China. Have some of these aspects of America been eroded in the past 50 years? Certainly. But they are still there, while almost non-existent here. Take off your rosy-tinted glasses.

why are some western expats SO condescending toward Chinese?

why can't they respect a totally different culture that they don't understand?

If they don't like China and "stupid, tacky" Chinese, why do they still live in China? So they can keep being condescending and feeling superior to Chinese?

Alec- you sound like someone who had they lived in China during the Cultural Revolution would have been pointing out the folks who weren't politically correct and sending them to the countryside for re-education. Your style of discourse is as shallow as your understanding of what constitutes communism. Your words were "America is more communist..." Anyone who seriously believes that "more of the trappings of communist nations (power in the worker's hands, social safety nets, legal protection for workers) were more evident in America than in China" is passing gas out their mouth. I've quoted the words you used exactly and now you deny that you've used them. Why should anyone take your ranting seriously when it is so obviously logically corrupt? You people talk like everone who disagrees with you is an idiot child who can't survive without the benefit of your wisdom and then get sniffy when they get pissed off at your paternalistic condescension. Like I said before check your head...

Unless you define communism as its modern incarnation, which seems to be "a bureaucratic totalitarian state that controls all aspects of society and allows for party members and those with insider connections to get fabulously wealthy off the work of the people." Sounds like N. Korea and China to me - but I don't think the original poster was defining communism this way when he bragged about China being the world's lone successful communist state.

To Alec and Littleme

For one thing, I do know what freedom of speech meant. Please don't make the assumption that I don't.

Anti-western in China is because of the First and the Second Opium War, the unequal treaties, the forced enclaves in Chinese territories, the invasion of Britain, France, Germany, Austria, Italy, Japan, Russia, and the United States, the looting and burning of the Old summer Palace. Yes, we are not going to totally trust you because nobody has stand up and apologies for the suffers that our ancestors endured. You know what? We don't really need you to apologies, it is in the past, we forgive you. However, trust is earned, not given. That being said, I do need to mention somebody happened in World War II. We, the Chinese were fighting along side the alliance during the World War II even before the United States decided to step in. Did our names get mentions in any situations? None that I know. Do we deserve one? I think we do but what do I know? I am just a brainwashed Chinese grown idiot right?

People like littlemen and Alec is the fundamental reason why there are differences between western and eastern cultures. They think they are more advanced than other civilizations. Meanwhile, Chinese is proud of their heritages, we like western world, we enjoy the idea of western world but we don't want it to covert us. We don't want people to tell us what to do and how to think? Why do we have to become a democratic country? Isn't there other ways to achieve freedom without democracy because the last time I checked, democracy is not freedom, it is a mean to the end, not the end.

Alec throwing around words like the CCP has the total control of the country, but they never specify how it did it. How can you control 1.3 billion people? Yes, they control the media, they control the public speech, yes they take out anybody who speak out against them. So what? 1.3 people are still talking, they are still expressing themselves, they are still discussing the government's policy and they are still comment negatively about the government if they don't like it. Freedom of speech is your right, unless people cut out your tongue, they can't take away that right. Words have ways to spread itself. And to Alec and littleme, the CCP does not have the total control of China, they wanted to, but they can't because the local officials are not totally comply to the central government. If they did, China's human right issues would've been long solved.

Another point I wanted to make is that Chinese people doesn't like foreign countries and people tell them what to do. We don't like Chinese people who uses foreign as an example to criticize our country either. We have out own ways of solving problem. And most of all, we hate our own citizen who uses foreign money to promote western policies in China. Absolute no no on that. Just like we don't tell you guys what to do either. And I am sure you guys hate lobbyist who work for Chinese government. Mind your own business, the 1.3 billion people can solve our own problems. If the CCP government is as bad as the western media think, it would be overthrown a long time ago. In a society, it is impossible to make everybody happy. All I am asking is give China like another 20-30 years so that we can improve our lives in peace.

It's not that Chinese can't take criticism, it's just when the Chinese simply put a little "(L) China" on their MSN, then all they hear is words like "You ought to be ashamed of yourselves. Bunch of easily led automatons", "This is so stupid", "idiots", "grown men here listen to the Backstreet Boys?", " they still like Tom Cruze?" etc., it does feel like westerners are simply judging them in a very condescending way. I think people should really understand what's actually going on on the mind of the Chinese before judging them. I think this collectivism culture can also be seen in Korea, Taiwan and Japan too, and we don't get to judge it's stupid or not. If you don't agree with it, please at least respect other people who grew up in this culture.

Besides It's just a little sign showing their support for China (although not necessarily the government) when so many foreigners are cursing China at this moment. I see "I HEART NY" sign on so many T-shirts and bags etc. on the streets of NYC, nothing wrong with that. And please notice that it's not "(L) Chinese government", but '(L) China"

I guess when the Olympic was awarded to China, it's such a great honor for the Chinese, so they cherish this opportunity so much. But when they see how some foreigners react to the torch relay in London and Paris, they got really angry, because they don't see the torch as a symbol of politics, but an honor awarded to China and Chinese people. If all those protesters really want to address human rights issues, they should do so directly to the Chinese government at the embassies or something, but not to the torch. And they had all the opportunities to do so over the past 50 years, so when they only chose the few days, which is very important days for the Chinese, as their target, it's not so pleasing for the Chinese.

Chinese people have their own differences with their government on a variety of issues for sure (like the protest against the extension of the meglev train), and they knew all along that CCTV and Xinhua are just propaganda tools, so no one really 100% trusted state-media anyway, which you can tell from many Chinese BBS. But for once when they show their love for their country, they are automatically labeled as "brainwashed".

When Chinese students go to the western countries to study or work, they expect to see fair and accurate news/reports from western media, because they believed western media are objective and neutral, unlike Xinhua or CCTV. But this time most of the western media failed them, just the other day FOX news was still titling the video of Nepalese police beating up Tibetans in Nepal as "Chinese police cracking down on Tibetans in China" long after the mistakes had been pointed out before. Of course western media should not be blamed for what happened in Tibet, they are just provoking/instigating anti-China sentiment among western audiences to pressure China, and that's just the political economy of media industry. And most western media are saying the same thing with little variation, it's really hard to find a different voice from western media this time. Chinese government forbid letting reporters/journalists going into Tibet, which made the government highly suspicious, but that doesn't entitle those reporters/journalists to take what the Tibetan exile government told them as the truth, because none of that was verified either. We can suspect the government all we want, but I also agree that it's not right to "make vast accusations without proof" from a News media standpoint.

And many western protesters have "no serious questioning of the sources of their information" too. Actually many of them can't even locate Tibet on a map of China (let alone a world map), so I doubt they really studied the info of Tibet on their own. It's a shame that, due to the disgusting censorship, most Chinese didn't know there's this unrest going on in Tibet for a long time till now. But do those western protesters really care about Tibet? if they really do, then where were they over the past decades when Tibetans needed help? they have all the free media all along, and Tibet didn't just appear on the earth out of the blue yesterday. As far as I know, some of them hadn't even heard about Tibet before, and they actually care much more about Anna Nichole Smith, Paris Hilton and American Idol. I hope they won't forget about Tibet too soon if Britney Spears shaves her head again. I do believe they all have good intentions, but can we say they are a "Bunch of easily led automatons"?

oh, and if you speak Chinese, check out mitBBS for instance, there IS variety in opinion among Chinese. But so far, it seems to me that a good majority of "people who speak English all have the same exact same opinion", just like a good majority of Chinese people support the Olympics.

I don't think westerners are jealous of China at all. But some western politicians are seriously worried about China's potential in the future when it comes to the oil and other resources in Africa, Middle East and other places, If you ever watched Lou Dobbs on CNN, you'd know how China has been portrayed as the 'Red Storm" that's increasingly threatening the west day by day. Should China try and change what has made the Tibetans so angry? YES. but China also has to be careful with some political agendas hidden behind the angry.

I don't know if the "play by our rules or go home" angle still work in China now, but it sure dose here in the states, especially for all the Mexican/Latino/Asian immigrants.On so many occasions, no matter how much you disagree with Americans, you just have to play by their rules, like when you need the employment authorization documents, or when you ask your employer to sponsor the H-1B work visa, you don't wanna piss off no one with your different opinions, and you don't get to tell them what they should do.

"Olympic Games are games and not political. Olympic Games represent the peace" I totally agree. But, unfortunately, that's not what we saw in London and Paris.

sega8800: democracy could mean freedom, and it also means the majority get to rule the minority. There's no absolute freedom in the world.

China has tons of problems, but China isn't developing this fast because Chinese are stupid. So for a few foreigners, please refrain from being too condescending. China needs as much criticism as it needs the honor, but condescension is not the best attitude when communicating with Asians.

As to my icon, I just found it randomly at a Korean website, and I thought it's funny. I've never thought too much into it.

Yes, a reasoned response from Titro. Refreshing in its lucidity. There are a number of things I'd mull over:

1. (Western media reports Tibetan statistics): The vast majority of articles I've read have listed both the Chinese government and Tibetan statistics, and not said either is true. The Chinese claims (13 or so Han Chinese dead, with no mention of Tibetan deaths - while the Tibetans claim over a hundred killed) seem preposterous to me as a news consumer, but the news sources I read (NY Times, Economist), etc, have not come out and said this.

2. (Western bias - mislabeled photographs)The instances of 'bias' I keep hearing are really kinda petty. A few newspapers or programs out of thousands mislabeled photos - this is taken as wide-ranging western discrimination as opposed to honest mistakes. Maybe the tone could be construed as biased, but the specific instances are small and insignificant given the amount of reporting that's gone on. It's also hard to report authoritatively when you are banned from the country because the government does not want you to know what's going on. Doesn't exactly inspire confidence that they are being honest with their facts.

3. (American only care about Tibet now)The Tibet movement has been huge in the States for years. This is not a recent phenomenon. My Aunt is a buddhist, owns a bookstore and every summer we had a group of Tibetan monks come and make a San Mandala to raise money for their monastery in India. This is in a small town in America. And please, while lots of Americans are ignorant (just like lots of rural Chinese and migrant workers and unaware of the nuances of international affairs) there is a vast, extremely well educated and aware population in America.

4. (Westerners concerned with human rights should go directly to China): Many, many groups have issues with the way China treats all its people, from imprisonment to executions to free speech to religious freedom, but walking up to the embassy or coming to China to complain would be useless and possibly dangerous. Like it or not, the torch symbolizes China and China's policies. It is a physical presence that is being carried around the world, and you just have to deal with the ramifications of your own policies.

5. (The olympics are not political) If that's the case, why did China boycott the 1956 Olympics when Taiwan was allowed to compete as Formosa? Sounds like politics to me.

Anyway, good debate.

the whole anti-West/anti-China thing won't benefit neither Chinese, Westerners nor Tibetans. I honestly think people should all calm down and figure out what's really going on and come up with practical solutions, instead of boycotting each other. Because We sure don't want to be manipulated by a few politicians.

I'm actually a little surprised that patriotism still plays a big role in uniting the young Chinese today, because there's been always a saying that Chinese are always like "一盘散沙". I think it's a very good thing that we Chinese love our country. But I definitely don't support the extreme nationalism, which could only do harm to our nation. When the design of the Shanghai Financial Center was forced to be changed (circle-echelon),I was really disappointed by the extreme nationalism behind this, and so were many of my Chinese friends.

For my Chinese fellows, I have no sympathy whatsoever for those violent,brutal rioters who killed other Han//Muslim Chinese and destroyed/looted other's properties, and they deserve to be punished. But we should talk to real, normal Tibetans and get to know what their real life is like, what they're angry at and why, rather than believing everything from media(both Chinese and Western), thus we can know the truth from real Tibetans and come up with a better way to maintain the integrity of our country, because hatred between Tibetan and other Chinese only separate each other further. And I hope Westerners would understand why the Chinese are trying so hard to protect the integrity of China and the Beijing Olympics, and be a little bit more sensitive to their proudness, because it's really not easy for China to have the chance to host the Olympics, and for the Chinese to finally witness the Olympics happening in their homeland. Let's not be too uptight or worked up about those cute little hearts on your MSN, relax, it's a sign of love, and it's better than hatred. When everyone is protesting against China, we could get angry some time, because normal Chinese citizens didn't do anything bad to Tibet after all, so I guess normal Chinese citizens deserve a peaceful Olympics they've been expecting. All we need is effective communication.

WatchBagDVD:

Hope you enjoy your time in China, and thank you very much for your understanding. I appreciate it.

To better understand the situation. I recommend you guys to read A History of Modern Tibet, 1913-1951: The Demise of the Lamaist State by Melvyn C. Goldstein, although I disagree on some of his points, but I think it is a well written and well researched book. After you read it, you will find out why Dalai Lama's relationship with the Chinese government is as bad as today.

@ Titro:

"If they don't like China and "stupid, tacky" Chinese, why do they still live in China? So they can keep being condescending and feeling superior to Chinese?"

Because they can live like kings and queens and don't have to deal with the drudgery of being only middle or upper middle class back home. Unlike China, no one thinks you are great for living in the suburbs or driving a SUV. These days you are more likely to receive scorn, snarls and snotty comments about being a conformist planet killer.

In China, the same people are white gods and Chinese people still eat it up, telling them how great they are and wishing they could be so lucky while plugging away at their little desks for 3000 RMB a month in Shanghai and Beijing.

First off, Heart Les Izmore too :) Thank you!

And thanks Alec for your response, and here's my response:

Yes, only a few newspapers or programs out of thousands mislabeled photos, but these few happened to be the leading news outlets in respective countries, so they actually have much more audiences/readers and much greater influences on public opinions than other small publications, and that's why people focus so much attention on these few. If a number of small tabloids are bashing China, then Chinese people would probably think they're just trying to get attention by using fake news, so no need to care. But Fox or CNN or BBC etc. are different. And also because they are the "big successful ones" in the news media industry, people expect them to be more accurate on news reporting and have higher standard of news quality. And what's interesting is that almost all of "the big few" made the same mistake at the same time-- mislabeling the photo/video. Werther it's bias or mistake doesn't matter anymore, because the result is that some people who really trust those news were kinda misled. Good thing is that some of them have corrected this mistake so far, except for Fox. I agree with you that media is not responsible for what happened in Tibet, but they are shaping people's opinions toward those issues, because for most people who haven't been to Tibet personally, what they see/hear form the media is what they perceive as reality there. I totally agree with you that "It's also hard to report authoritatively when you are banned from the country because the government does not want you to know what's going on", but again, using photos/videos form what happened in Nepal and titling them with "China's crackdown" was not exactly what people would expect from those leading news outlets. So news media should be much more careful when dealing with these details, because at such a sensitive time, any mistake, no matter intended or unintended, could provoke angers.

I'm sure there is a vast, extremely well educated and aware population in America, and many of them are aware of the Tibet issue. it's just all of a sudden, the number of protesters became so huge. like an explosion. That's why I doubt they all have been following the Tibet issue over the past decades. Maybe they have. Maybe it's just me, I didn't grow up here anyway. I was just wondering :)

So walking up to the embassy may be useless, but attacking the torch or boycotting the Olympics would not only be useless, but also be agitating the hatred and Chinese nationalism, which is worse. I guess you already saw what happened after the London, Paris torch relay, the boycott of French products and xenophobia is now spreading. It's all provoked by the anti-China protests. I don't think the government would change anything once they realize that Chinese people are being pushed by the anti-China and pro-independence protests toward the government.

you said "you just have to deal with the ramifications of your own policies"
you know those policies were not made by most ordinary Chinese people, and they just want a peaceful Olympics. Maybe people could consider the feelings of Chinese people a bit more, not alienating them. Maybe people could've come up with some peaceful way to let the Chinese get to know the situations of Tibet and Tibetans better and help the Chinese to help the Tibetans, instead of launching fanatic, sometimes even violent, protests against Olympics and China to agitate them. I believe there are more effective ways to deal with Tibet issues than using Olympics as a platform to humiliate and embarrass China. You know in most Asian cultures, loosing face like this is a huge humiliation that could lead to retaliation (or suicide, in the case of Japan). By humiliating each other, no problem would be solved. Yes, China boycotted the 1956 Olympics, and I think it should have not. But if people really insist that the torch should symbolize China's policies and politics, then I really don't know what to say. I really can't change other people's mind on that.

wow, I can't believe I wrote so much English in one day :)

Titro puts a lot out there, and I think that's because Titro rightly sees that things are complex and interconnected. Nothing's simple about China and its relationship to the West and simplistic assessments from any side are bound to shut down conversation and piss lots of people off.

But the fact that everything's complex and connected is precisely why "we can't just let China enjoy these Olympics and express their rightful pride in their country" (as if it were up to "us"!).

China sought the Olympic hosting gig as a way to spotlight its emergence into the global arena as a major power (among other things, including a love of synchronized swimming and gymnastics, yeah yeah yeah). And this is the point I wanted to make earlier vis-a-vis Titro's earlier point and a lot of the less-nuanced expressions of "just let China have its Olympic fun." That's naive and it's impossible (and again, it's not really up to "us") because it's not just about China, it's about the world and all the very different peoples and cultures in it.

Titro says let's ask "real Tibetans" what they think, for example. Well, they've been expressing themselves quite clearly, haven't they? But it's not what Han Chinese want to hear, in large part because it pulls the whole question of China's legitimacy as presently constituted into historical question. History is messy and complex--how nice to have a simple answer to such messy and complex questions on hand, whether it's the ugly knee-jerk nationalism of someone like winterfalling or the saccharine hearts & fuwa "let's-all-pretend-the-Olympics-aren't-political –and-just-have-fun" attitude.

And yeah, you can do that, but you can't expect people in the rest of the world, from Tibet to Paris to Darfur to wherever, to go nicely along with the program. The US is instructive in this case--clearly, the world isn't lining up to embrace American-style corporatized democracy just because US leadership and media tout is as the best--the only, even--way to organize the world's affairs.

Back to China, I think what foreigners here should do is try to get to know as much of China as possible, from the university kids and emerging middle class proud of China's economic rise to the Uighur guy feeling resentful of his exclusion from that bonanza to the farmer furious at the corruption and graft in the countryside... big picture, lots of details, and not necessarily the picture the Chinese government wants people to see.

And the Chinese should be doing the same... getting out into the world and finding out what "foreigners" are like as individuals representing a diversity of opinions and backgrounds—and a lot of them do, and when they do they're much more likely to sound like Titro instead of winterfalling.

And if we get out of our comfort zones and actually learn something about other people and places, when we all talk and try to figure out how to do what we can to make the world a better place (to reference the banned French Olympic team motto), we're a hell of a lot less likely to start in with the mindless insults and knee-jerk defensiveness because we'll actually know something instead of just having an opinion (like they say, opinions are like assholes—everybody has one).

But I still think an "oh, c'mon let's just have fun" attitude can shut down real dialogue just as much as a "fuck you and leave my country" one or a dismissive and condescending "oh you Chinese people are so silly with your IM hearts and groupthink" or a "you Westerners are all so condescending and think you're so superior" or any other summary totalizing judgment.

But then again, yeah, I just can't wait to watch some good basketball games....

Well Mr. T. mindless automatons is a serious claim. How did you know that? Did you talk to any of these people personally and get to know them? If not, how could you make that claim. Also, I happen to admire the "Support our troops" bumper stickers. The troops deserver all the respect. The fault is on the commander of chief. Even if you don't like this administration, I do believe that you still love this this country( you are American right?). This same kind of feeling apply to us Chinese people as well.

I don't understand about people who is worry or laugh at (L)China on MSN especially when they praise themselves from a "free speech" land, as you proud that you grow up in a country of freedom, you should understand the diversity of human behaviour, what are you laugh at or worry about? None of them has courage to face their own problem here, they avoid to criticize themselves instead keep criticizing China, even when Chinese is focus on the latest issue about the distorted report of western media and nobody say they want to check it seriously,is this the heredity of their invader nature?

What? I thought Congress passed a law that says only Americans are allowed to be patriotic.

ALEC SAID"
"are 'jealous' of China. Huh? So China's growth rate is higher - that's because China is poor. The per capita income is still 1/15th of Frances'. The Westerners are jealous because China wins more medals? When did that happen? I thought America won the most medals at the last Olympics? Are we jealous of China's clean air, excellent universities, thriving cultural scene, free and universal health care, open and transparent government, excellent international sports teams . . . . what, outside of growth figures that only exist because China started from such a desperately poor position, are Westerners jealous of? Please enlgihten, o you raving maniacs who have invaded Shanghaiist"

HUH, you made no point. the west is sure jealous of the growing speed. lets see how much the west has improved since 1980? china tripled the average speed of the west.
if china is keeping go ahead on such fast speed, it takes short time for china to surpass the west.
are you clear now, you stupid scumbag!